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Around SBN: The Gift Of The 2003 Tigers

Its time to talk about Tyson

I was the first one on the Wallace bandwagon. But in retrospect I thiink I do not value the age issues properly. I did not appreciate that Ben's stats showed a downward cycle.  It is apparent to me that he can do it now only once every 5 games or so. Also, he has an attitude problem. He woudn't stand for a diminished role.  He woudn't stand for ...god forbid...coaching.  Like stop passing so much and making stupid turnovers.  Stop fronting your guy all the time, stop failing to box out, and stop laying up and actually dunk.

Now on to Tyson.  In February he is averaging 16.3 RPG and 12.8 PPG.  He is also averaging a double-double since the beginning of the year. That's two months worth of games.  I still can't imagine it.  I think we gave up on the guy too young. He is becoming a major force in the league.   And remember, he still will naturally put on weight.  He is hear now.  He is better than Ben today.  He even can be in the same discussion right now with Elton, with a larger upside.  We had him, we gave him for not even close enough.  I'm sad.

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uh...
you bring up Ben's unwillingness to be coached, and that was apparently a big problem with Tyson.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 28, 2007 11:35 PM CST reply actions  

and I might as well get this out of the way
I don't know if everyone remembers but I was one of the bigger Tyson Chandler fans around. And I'm really happy that he's playing well.

but I disagree that 'It's time' to talk about him over Ben. It's been a few months. Ben's signed for 3 more seasons, Tyson for 4. Plenty of time to look back...at least let one playoff series go by first.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 1, 2007 12:22 AM CST up reply actions  

It's about the PLAYOFFS, stupid
to paraphrase a BC '02 campaign slogan.  (not calling Matt stupid, but agreeing with him that the only real issue is playoff results not who's better).

I did question this at the time of the signing, so I believe I have some right to question it now (I was okay with it in the larger context of length of contract, bulls being well under salary cap at the time, less fouls, screens, etc.)

But I think the salient point in the head to head discussion is that Tyson's All-Star days are ahead of him while Ben's are behind him. If  But that's not what really matters.

I'll only judge the move in the context of cold-hard results.  The signing was as part of TEAM play, and the constraints of an overall vision for the salary structure of the Bulls in the years to come.  

If the Bulls don't get to the finals by next year, or at least the conference finals, then it was a bad move in retrospect.  Lucky, I happen to think that the Bulls are much  better than their record indicates.

GWKD, but what's in a stupid screen name. will change it soon.

by GWKD on Mar 2, 2007 10:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, but...
Remember what happened last year.  Tyson got the big contract, then didn't work on his game, showed up out of shape, got hurt, and played terribly all year.  You can't keep guys like that around.  If Tyson can keep this up, good for him.  But given his career here (and remember, he was on the Bulls for 5 years!) I can understand why the move was made.

And please, stop talking about Tyson's "upside" and comparing him to EB.  This is the best Tyson will ever get.  He's never going to be a scorer.  

by Fred Manrique on Feb 28, 2007 11:57 PM CST reply actions  

Fronting in the post
Is coaching.  There is a quote somehwere saying that he prefers not to, but the team wants him to.
Deng, he's good!!!!!!!!!

by cubbybear on Mar 1, 2007 12:37 AM CST reply actions  

I miss Tyson
I always wanted him to be great.

by JoJoEnglish94bulls4ever on Mar 1, 2007 12:55 AM CST reply actions  

All i'm saying is...
His numbers in years 1-4 were not bad.  For the past two months he has become a unique force in the league. Matt--don't make me go and look up the DEFENSIVE rebound statistics.  

What do you think might have happened in the last week or so if we had the second best defensive rebounder in the league on our team.  Might those 20      offensive rebound nights from our opponents been more like 12.  Would we get to 50 wins with Tyson?

And Fred, I'm not saying he's a scorer, I'm saying even this year he is significantly outscoring Big Ben (the worst free throw shooter in NBA history)

by joemoses on Mar 1, 2007 6:52 AM CST reply actions  

WHAT THE F***?!
2002 > 4.8 REB. > 0.8 Ast. > 1.3 BLK.> 6.1 PPG.
2003 > 6.9 REB. > 1.0 Ast. > 1.4 BLK.> 9.2 PPG.
2004 > 7.7 REB. > 0.7 Ast. > 1.2 BLK.> 6.1 PPG.
2005 > 9.7 REB. > 0.8 Ast. > 1.8 BLK.> 8.0 PPG.
2006 > 9.0 REB. > 1.0 Ast. > 1.3 BLK.> 5.3 PPG.

*Basketball-Reference.com

Tyson Chandler's numbers were bad.  He was the 2nd overall pick!  Apparently you don't have high standards for a 2nd overall pick.  He was terrible.  His intagibles were null.  He had and still has a terrible basketball IQ.  He still has no post-up or go-to move.  All his points come off dunks.  He still makes silly fouls.  I could go on and on and on.......

by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Let us not forget the Tyson that played in Chitown
The last few years he was suppose to be our "Ben Wallace". The difference was he was not strong enough to defend the post, and while he was always able to get rebounds when he was playing he was also always making stupid fouls that put him on the bench during key situations. Now add the persistent back problem that came up from time to time and I can see why we got rid of him for the real "Ben Wallace".

Now I'm glad that Tyson is doing well but it's too bad that it took him to be traded to dedicate himself to the game. If he would have done that while he was in Chicago then he would still be playing here.

by boerwinkle on Mar 1, 2007 6:58 AM CST reply actions  

Yup
Don't forget Tyson plays in front of 5,000 people a night in New Orleans/Oklahoma City.  There's no pressure.  Tyson could not handle sports crazy Chicago.  If Hornets get to the playoffs, he will most likely pull a 2005 BULLS/WIZARDS playoff special and foul out in the first 2 mintues of the game.

by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:22 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm betting
that if Tyson had stayed with the Bulls, Skiles would be sitting in a prison cell somewhere.
Men who whine are so unattractive.

by sue369 on Mar 1, 2007 7:43 AM CST reply actions  

hahahaha
Thanks for the good laugh I just had.

by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Who's the guy playing next to Tyson
on the front line?  I bet that has some impact versus who is playing next to Wallace.  But Wallace should bring it more often.

by bullshooter on Mar 1, 2007 9:12 AM CST reply actions  

Talk about revisionist history
I guess I'm the only one who remembers how terrible Tyson was for most of last season.  He probably cost us at least 5-6 games in the first few months of last season.  Ben Wallace has had some bad games this season too, but for the most part, he usually manages to grab about 7 or 8 boards and throw in a few blocks and steals in his weaker games.  Tyson's bad games last year consisted of him scoring no points, grabbing 1 rebound, and fouling out in 15 minutes (look it up, he had several games like that).  Wallace at least usually manages to stay out of foul trouble.  And as Matt said, we can't really draw any conclusions until we see what Wallace does in the playoffs.

by Big D on Mar 1, 2007 9:21 AM CST reply actions  

I remember!
Those Tyson games were truly awful.  According to "MSM speak," the biggest thing Ben brings to the Bulls are his "intangibles."  Great.  The definition of which is "Incapable of being realized or defined."  Well, I'll define what Ben means to this team with numbers.  First, free throws.  Last year, the Bulls sent the opposition to the line 30.1 times/game which was tied with the Knicks for worst in the league. How many times were the Bulls out shot at the FT line 42-18 last year?  Chandler had the 3rd most personal fouls in the NBA last year and was the main contributor to this stat.  Wallace averaged about half as many fouls/game as Tyson so I thought in July that this would be the initial benefit to the Bulls.  What do you know?  The Bulls are now 16th in the league sending their opponents to the line @ 26/game as Ben averages almost half as many fouls per game as Tyson (1.9 to 3.5).   With the amount of close games the Bulls play, that's huge.  

Now factor in Ben's ability to block an opponent's shot to a teammate, instead of into the stands (yes I'm talking about you, Tyson!). Consider the extra steal per game Ben gets over Tyson.  And  according to 82games.com Ben has drawn twice as many offensive fouls this year as Tyson.

These are things that add up over the course of a game.  

Let's not forget Tyson's supposed strength: Offensive Rebounds.  Well, they are averaging almost the exact same amount of offensive boards per game this year (Ben: 4.0/game, Tyson: 4.3/game).  It's moot.  Then add in that Tyson graduated Summa Cum Laude from the "Eddy Curry School of Passing" and contributes exactly .8 assists more per game than I do sitting on my couch.  I don't think it's going out on a limb stating that the offense runs a little smother through Ben and his 2.2 asst/game.

I really liked Tyson here, but his presense became redundant with Big Ben's signing. Ben's a better player right now, and that's what this team needs.  

In Pax we Trust!

by Jobu on Mar 1, 2007 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

And he still has small hands
Couldn't have said it better myself.  

by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Buy a hairshirt and a Cat o Nine Tails and enjoy
You point out you were on the Wallace bandwagon, so what are you complaining about now.

The minute Wallace signed with the Bulls it made no sense to keep Chandler. $25 Million/yr tied up in 2 centers who can't score wasn't going to happen.
Like Matt, I bemoaned Chandler's baby hands, his inability to set a legal pick and his lack of anything approaching a post game. However, there was no question that the Bulls were a superior defensive team with him in the lineup and much less of one with him on the bench.

He needed a new situation and I'm only mildly surprised at how well he is doing. The big difference this year is that the Hornets don't really use him on offense except to line up on the weak side and cut to the basket for rebounds and dunks. Because of that he gets very few offensive fouls and stays in the game.

Ye OldeBull

by OldeBull on Mar 1, 2007 11:29 AM CST reply actions  

The "what if" game doesn't really work.
We'll never know what kind of year Tyson would have had here had they not signed Ben, or had they decided to spend the money and keep both, but I'd bet my life savings that Tyson would not be having this season had a stayed a Bull playing for Skiles.  There's a lot to be said for a fresh start.  It also doesn't work to go back in time and stress over what might have happened had they handled Tyson differently.

(Incidentally, my net worth is about -$85,000 in student loans right now, so betting my life savings isn't saying much!)

by wjb1492 on Mar 1, 2007 12:06 PM CST reply actions  

settle the argument once and for all
for whatever reason, tyson never developed here. Maybe it was the expectatons, big market, not a true pg (remember kirk is a combo guard at heart, maybe even 2) the chi sports media, something int he water, forever being known as the guy EB was traded for, #3, skiles whatever....it wasn't working

what did we end up doing? We crippled a divisional rival, got on nat'l tv, huge coup in the FA market, saved a year in the long run on contracts, got a new defensive identity, and made the best move we could given the circumstances.

If tyson continued to underpreform at 10M a year, we  would be in a much scairer situation given deng, gordon, and noch's extensions and resigining.....its easy to look back and criticize, but i think we can all agree it was the right move at the time

by milesgmsu on Mar 1, 2007 12:44 PM CST reply actions  

AGREE

by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:13 PM CST up reply actions  

A mistake to judge Tyson by last year
I think that's a mistake made by the Bulls and the fans.  OK, so he didn't work out at the Berto Center over the summer.  That may have put him in Skiles dog house from day one, but it doesn't mean that he was "out of shape" relative to the average NBA player walking into camp.  It's not like he spent his time off at Popeye's with Mike Sweetney.

Second, we expected quite a bit from Tyson after the fourth season.  That's when both he and Eddy had begun to mature as players and gel as teamates.  At that point, everyone was pretty excited about these two going forward.  But it was not to be.

By the time next year began, Eddy was in New York and Tyson was thrust into the center position.  To make matters worse, team doctors spent half the year diagnosing and treating his esophagus problem that was prohibiting his breathing and affecting his stamina.  And if that wasn't enough, he was no longer playing alongside a big scoring threat and now paired with what would have been deep bench players on other teams like Othella Harrington.  
Not buying that?  Just look at Tyson's numbers without David West, injured for the first half, versus his numbers since West has been healthy and productive.

To get back to Skile's doghouse, that's not Tyson's problem.  It's Skiles.  We're not talking about Stephon Marbury or Rasheed Wallace here.  Just like were not talking about Sweetney when it comes to conditioning.  He may not have worked as hard on his game as MJ, but that doesn't get you traded by most coaches.  He may not have done whatever it is Chris Duhon is doing, but that doesn't get you playing time from most coaches.

To be honest with ourselves, we ought to realize Tyson's days were numbered the day Paxson became GM regardless of his performance.  Better performance last year would simply have meant better players in return once he was dealt.  The day Chandler, Curry and Crawford magic markered "JK" on their shoes ensured their days were numbered - contract extentions or not.  

by rednomore on Mar 1, 2007 1:45 PM CST reply actions  

Please fill in the peanut gallery
on the David West splits. I also recall Paxson signing the guy for a fair wage.

And [cough] self-promotion warning:
Tyson is doing pretty much the same things now as he did in his 04-05 season.

http://taurinedream.blogspot.com/2007/03/youve-already-seen-best-of-tyson.html

I think I owe Matt a 1/2 cent per ad.

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Mar 1, 2007 1:54 PM CST up reply actions  

nothing more lucrative than online advertising
Like PaxJax said, Paxson signed him to a huge extension. That kindof submarines the whole last part of your post.

I think they weren't planning on getting Wallace, and when they did they dealt Chandler. It's really not that complicated.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 1, 2007 3:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Patience
If you draft a young player out of High School you need to wait and be patient.  My concern is with TT.  Are we going to get frustrated with TT in 2-3 years and let him go for nothing only to find out we gave up a really good player?  Chandler and Curry early on were terrible but they showed signs of contibuting.  Chandler was a force in the last minute of tight games.  He is 7'1".  For someone 7'1" I say err on the side of patience.  I see similar things in TT.  He shows flashes of someone who really can impact a game.  He shows flashes of no basketball IQ.  He is 20 years old.  What is he going to be like at 24 - 25 year old?  Do we (Skiles and Paxson) have the patientce to find out?
chgobr

by chgobr on Mar 1, 2007 3:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Doesn't matter what they wind up doing
Honestly, it shouldn't matter to Pax what Tyson does with his new team. He's trying to make the Bulls better, if they dealt Thomas for Garnett this summer and Thomas is a superstar in 5 years, who cares? What would matter in that scenario is how the Bulls did in that time.

The real issue is the disappointment in Wallace, not how Chandler's doing.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 1, 2007 3:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Free agency verses growing your own
The difference is money.  Garnett going to cost you $20 mil +.  TT, if he really is good, may make half that.  Garnett's salary kills you from signing other players.  Chandler is 24 years old and is making about $10 mil.  Wallace at 31 y.o. is making $16 mil.  There is upside on Chandler and downside on Wallace.  

Free agency is expensive.  There is always an owner that thinks a player is the difference maker and is willing to over-pay.  This is exactly what we did with Wallace.  Growing your own in painful and tests your patientce but can be (not always) less expensive.

chgobr

by chgobr on Mar 1, 2007 3:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Wallace isn't a dissapointment
he leads the Bulls in steals, blocks and rebounds. He gets numerous deflections and charges called. If he had a post up man to play alongside, he most likely would have better numbers. Don't put the Bulls losses on Ben's shoulder. He does a lot.
AIM screen name : Option27

by Option27 on Mar 1, 2007 4:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Agree somewhat.....
I place the blame on Skiles.  Don't play Chris Duhon 25 mintues per game.  Skiles should be grooming Tyrus & Thabo.  Skiles needs to know that it will pay big time next year.

by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Chandler 06 vs 07
Let's get this straight. Were you bad mouthing the Wallace Signing in August?
Maybe you were. I think we all knew (I'm speaking for those who actually know something about the NBA) that signing Wallace was sticking us with a contract we might well prefer to not have in a couple of years. But most people thought it would make this a better team this year and next,especially when we got to the playoffs. That may still turn out to be true.

As to Chandler, I looked up his stats for last year and this year and the difference is almost completely due to minutes played. The're better this year but not that much and this year he's playing with a great penetrating PG which often leaves him free to go get rebounds when his man goes to help on Chris Paul.

Last year Chandler averaged 5.30 points/game and 9.0 rebounds/game in 26.8 min/gm. his per 40 min numbers are 7.91 pts & 13.58 rbs  
This year he's averaging 8.6 pts & 12.4 rbs in 34.5 Mn/gm. His 40min numbers are 9.97 pts & 14.37 rbs.  
That's an improvement but the real difference is he's only committing 4.0 fouls/40min played this year versus 7.1 fouls/40 last year. See my earlier post for why.

 

Ye OldeBull

by OldeBull on Mar 1, 2007 4:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Right on!
I'm right with you.  He gets all the points from Paul penetrating.  All Dunks.  He still doesn't have a go-to move, no post-up game.  And with all this talk about Curry > He still can't pass out of a double team, still can't rebound, can't hit free-throws, can't defend.  Yeah, he scores 5/6 more points than he did in the past, but that's it.  Both Chandler & Curry are the same players.  Both of them have a 0 Basketball IQ.  Both of them have no leadership skills.  Do you honestly think if we still had Curry & Chandler, more Championship banners would be hanging in the rafters in the near future??? I don't think so!

by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:08 PM CST up reply actions  

But.....
  1.  No I was not badmouthing the Wallace signing in August, I loved it.  And, yes of course we knew that  it might stick us with the contract we might not prefer to have.  However, my problem with him is that he is a.  underperforming this season, far more than the natural decline I expected.  b. he is an ego driven headcase that seems to be thin skinned and can only play at the expected level when he is psyched up enough to do so.  c.  He is the worst free throw shooter in the history of the game (and I attribute this to his concentration as he has decent form but nonetheless is worse than shaq, wilt, dudley)
  2. I said all last year, the problem with Tyson last year was his stupid fouls.  If you look up the Bulls record last year when he played more than 35 minutes, it was significantly better than when he didn't.  But this year he is staying on the court and that comes with maturity.  Even with his limitations, when he stays on the court, his rebounding numbers since the first of January show numbers equal to only Rodman and Wallace in their prime.
  3.  Yes his offensive numbers are also in double figures since the first of the year and part of that is Paul and part is just staying in the game.  But it is still double figures.  He would have done the same for us just by being on the court enough minutes.  Ben can't even do that right now.
Most of all, I just don't feel that ben is giving what we paid for night in and night out.  I don't believe its physical, I think it is his attitude and this I have a great problem with.

by joemoses on Mar 1, 2007 10:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Tyson Chandler = 0 Basketball IQ
Tyson has one of those bodies that will never fill out.  The fact is that he still has small hands.  Still makes silly fouls.  Also, he's doing this with an under .500 team.  He disappeared in the playoffs 2 years ago.  I don't have the confidence that he will put up those numbers in the playoffs.  

by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Agree
We brought "BIG" Ben here for the playoffs!  We already know what Tyson brings to the playoffs.  Not much!

by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:39 PM CST reply actions  

Wallace and Chandler are
arguably about equal now.  Chandler is 7'1", 24 costs 10 mil and is getting better.  Wallace is 6'9", cost 16 mil and is getting worse.
chgobr

by chgobr on Mar 2, 2007 6:50 AM CST reply actions  

I wll say, though . . .
It is frustrating to see Tyson go somewhere else and immediately become a better player.  It's also getting tiresome hearing that he had to go because he and Skiles couldn't get along.  I don't think Tyson was blameless there, but I sure as hell don't think Skiles was either.  Aren't the best coaches supposed to get the most out of their players?  

by Big D on Mar 2, 2007 2:21 PM CST reply actions  

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