Its time to talk about Tyson
I was the first one on the Wallace bandwagon. But in retrospect I thiink I do not value the age issues properly. I did not appreciate that Ben's stats showed a downward cycle. It is apparent to me that he can do it now only once every 5 games or so. Also, he has an attitude problem. He woudn't stand for a diminished role. He woudn't stand for ...god forbid...coaching. Like stop passing so much and making stupid turnovers. Stop fronting your guy all the time, stop failing to box out, and stop laying up and actually dunk.
Now on to Tyson. In February he is averaging 16.3 RPG and 12.8 PPG. He is also averaging a double-double since the beginning of the year. That's two months worth of games. I still can't imagine it. I think we gave up on the guy too young. He is becoming a major force in the league. And remember, he still will naturally put on weight. He is hear now. He is better than Ben today. He even can be in the same discussion right now with Elton, with a larger upside. We had him, we gave him for not even close enough. I'm sad.
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uh...
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 28, 2007 11:35 PM CST reply actions
and I might as well get this out of the way
but I disagree that 'It's time' to talk about him over Ben. It's been a few months. Ben's signed for 3 more seasons, Tyson for 4. Plenty of time to look back...at least let one playoff series go by first.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 1, 2007 12:22 AM CST up reply actions
It's about the PLAYOFFS, stupid
I did question this at the time of the signing, so I believe I have some right to question it now (I was okay with it in the larger context of length of contract, bulls being well under salary cap at the time, less fouls, screens, etc.)
But I think the salient point in the head to head discussion is that Tyson's All-Star days are ahead of him while Ben's are behind him. If But that's not what really matters.
I'll only judge the move in the context of cold-hard results. The signing was as part of TEAM play, and the constraints of an overall vision for the salary structure of the Bulls in the years to come.
If the Bulls don't get to the finals by next year, or at least the conference finals, then it was a bad move in retrospect. Lucky, I happen to think that the Bulls are much better than their record indicates.
by GWKD on Mar 2, 2007 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, but...
And please, stop talking about Tyson's "upside" and comparing him to EB. This is the best Tyson will ever get. He's never going to be a scorer.
by Fred Manrique on Feb 28, 2007 11:57 PM CST reply actions
Fronting in the post
I miss Tyson
by JoJoEnglish94bulls4ever on Mar 1, 2007 12:55 AM CST reply actions
Wanting and reality are two different things......
by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:36 PM CST up reply actions
All i'm saying is...
What do you think might have happened in the last week or so if we had the second best defensive rebounder in the league on our team. Might those 20 offensive rebound nights from our opponents been more like 12. Would we get to 50 wins with Tyson?
And Fred, I'm not saying he's a scorer, I'm saying even this year he is significantly outscoring Big Ben (the worst free throw shooter in NBA history)
WHAT THE F***?!
2003 > 6.9 REB. > 1.0 Ast. > 1.4 BLK.> 9.2 PPG.
2004 > 7.7 REB. > 0.7 Ast. > 1.2 BLK.> 6.1 PPG.
2005 > 9.7 REB. > 0.8 Ast. > 1.8 BLK.> 8.0 PPG.
2006 > 9.0 REB. > 1.0 Ast. > 1.3 BLK.> 5.3 PPG.
*Basketball-Reference.com
Tyson Chandler's numbers were bad. He was the 2nd overall pick! Apparently you don't have high standards for a 2nd overall pick. He was terrible. His intagibles were null. He had and still has a terrible basketball IQ. He still has no post-up or go-to move. All his points come off dunks. He still makes silly fouls. I could go on and on and on.......
by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:35 PM CST up reply actions
Let us not forget the Tyson that played in Chitown
Now I'm glad that Tyson is doing well but it's too bad that it took him to be traded to dedicate himself to the game. If he would have done that while he was in Chicago then he would still be playing here.
Yup
by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:22 PM CST up reply actions
I'm betting
hahahaha
by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:17 PM CST up reply actions
Another diary that makes me sad :(
by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Mar 1, 2007 7:57 AM CST reply actions
Who's the guy playing next to Tyson
Talk about revisionist history
I remember!
Now factor in Ben's ability to block an opponent's shot to a teammate, instead of into the stands (yes I'm talking about you, Tyson!). Consider the extra steal per game Ben gets over Tyson. And according to 82games.com Ben has drawn twice as many offensive fouls this year as Tyson.
These are things that add up over the course of a game.
Let's not forget Tyson's supposed strength: Offensive Rebounds. Well, they are averaging almost the exact same amount of offensive boards per game this year (Ben: 4.0/game, Tyson: 4.3/game). It's moot. Then add in that Tyson graduated Summa Cum Laude from the "Eddy Curry School of Passing" and contributes exactly .8 assists more per game than I do sitting on my couch. I don't think it's going out on a limb stating that the offense runs a little smother through Ben and his 2.2 asst/game.
I really liked Tyson here, but his presense became redundant with Big Ben's signing. Ben's a better player right now, and that's what this team needs.
And he still has small hands
by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:15 PM CST up reply actions
Buy a hairshirt and a Cat o Nine Tails and enjoy
The minute Wallace signed with the Bulls it made no sense to keep Chandler. $25 Million/yr tied up in 2 centers who can't score wasn't going to happen.
Like Matt, I bemoaned Chandler's baby hands, his inability to set a legal pick and his lack of anything approaching a post game. However, there was no question that the Bulls were a superior defensive team with him in the lineup and much less of one with him on the bench.
He needed a new situation and I'm only mildly surprised at how well he is doing. The big difference this year is that the Hornets don't really use him on offense except to line up on the weak side and cut to the basket for rebounds and dunks. Because of that he gets very few offensive fouls and stays in the game.
The "what if" game doesn't really work.
(Incidentally, my net worth is about -$85,000 in student loans right now, so betting my life savings isn't saying much!)
settle the argument once and for all
what did we end up doing? We crippled a divisional rival, got on nat'l tv, huge coup in the FA market, saved a year in the long run on contracts, got a new defensive identity, and made the best move we could given the circumstances.
If tyson continued to underpreform at 10M a year, we would be in a much scairer situation given deng, gordon, and noch's extensions and resigining.....its easy to look back and criticize, but i think we can all agree it was the right move at the time
A mistake to judge Tyson by last year
Second, we expected quite a bit from Tyson after the fourth season. That's when both he and Eddy had begun to mature as players and gel as teamates. At that point, everyone was pretty excited about these two going forward. But it was not to be.
By the time next year began, Eddy was in New York and Tyson was thrust into the center position. To make matters worse, team doctors spent half the year diagnosing and treating his esophagus problem that was prohibiting his breathing and affecting his stamina. And if that wasn't enough, he was no longer playing alongside a big scoring threat and now paired with what would have been deep bench players on other teams like Othella Harrington.
Not buying that? Just look at Tyson's numbers without David West, injured for the first half, versus his numbers since West has been healthy and productive.
To get back to Skile's doghouse, that's not Tyson's problem. It's Skiles. We're not talking about Stephon Marbury or Rasheed Wallace here. Just like were not talking about Sweetney when it comes to conditioning. He may not have worked as hard on his game as MJ, but that doesn't get you traded by most coaches. He may not have done whatever it is Chris Duhon is doing, but that doesn't get you playing time from most coaches.
To be honest with ourselves, we ought to realize Tyson's days were numbered the day Paxson became GM regardless of his performance. Better performance last year would simply have meant better players in return once he was dealt. The day Chandler, Curry and Crawford magic markered "JK" on their shoes ensured their days were numbered - contract extentions or not.
by rednomore on Mar 1, 2007 1:45 PM CST reply actions
Please fill in the peanut gallery
And [cough] self-promotion warning:
Tyson is doing pretty much the same things now as he did in his 04-05 season.
http://taurinedream.blogspot.com/2007/03/youve-already-seen-best-of-tyson.html
I think I owe Matt a 1/2 cent per ad.
by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Mar 1, 2007 1:54 PM CST up reply actions
nothing more lucrative than online advertising
I think they weren't planning on getting Wallace, and when they did they dealt Chandler. It's really not that complicated.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 1, 2007 3:19 PM CST up reply actions
Patience
Doesn't matter what they wind up doing
The real issue is the disappointment in Wallace, not how Chandler's doing.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 1, 2007 3:22 PM CST up reply actions
Free agency verses growing your own
Free agency is expensive. There is always an owner that thinks a player is the difference maker and is willing to over-pay. This is exactly what we did with Wallace. Growing your own in painful and tests your patientce but can be (not always) less expensive.
Wallace isn't a dissapointment
Agree somewhat.....
by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:11 PM CST up reply actions
Chandler 06 vs 07
Maybe you were. I think we all knew (I'm speaking for those who actually know something about the NBA) that signing Wallace was sticking us with a contract we might well prefer to not have in a couple of years. But most people thought it would make this a better team this year and next,especially when we got to the playoffs. That may still turn out to be true.
As to Chandler, I looked up his stats for last year and this year and the difference is almost completely due to minutes played. The're better this year but not that much and this year he's playing with a great penetrating PG which often leaves him free to go get rebounds when his man goes to help on Chris Paul.
Last year Chandler averaged 5.30 points/game and 9.0 rebounds/game in 26.8 min/gm. his per 40 min numbers are 7.91 pts & 13.58 rbs
This year he's averaging 8.6 pts & 12.4 rbs in 34.5 Mn/gm. His 40min numbers are 9.97 pts & 14.37 rbs.
That's an improvement but the real difference is he's only committing 4.0 fouls/40min played this year versus 7.1 fouls/40 last year. See my earlier post for why.
Right on!
by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:08 PM CST up reply actions
But.....
- No I was not badmouthing the Wallace signing in August, I loved it. And, yes of course we knew that it might stick us with the contract we might not prefer to have. However, my problem with him is that he is a. underperforming this season, far more than the natural decline I expected. b. he is an ego driven headcase that seems to be thin skinned and can only play at the expected level when he is psyched up enough to do so. c. He is the worst free throw shooter in the history of the game (and I attribute this to his concentration as he has decent form but nonetheless is worse than shaq, wilt, dudley)
- I said all last year, the problem with Tyson last year was his stupid fouls. If you look up the Bulls record last year when he played more than 35 minutes, it was significantly better than when he didn't. But this year he is staying on the court and that comes with maturity. Even with his limitations, when he stays on the court, his rebounding numbers since the first of January show numbers equal to only Rodman and Wallace in their prime.
- Yes his offensive numbers are also in double figures since the first of the year and part of that is Paul and part is just staying in the game. But it is still double figures. He would have done the same for us just by being on the court enough minutes. Ben can't even do that right now.
Tyson Chandler = 0 Basketball IQ
by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:00 PM CST up reply actions
Agree
by GranvilleWaiters on Mar 1, 2007 7:39 PM CST reply actions

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