Skiles' Awful Player Management: Tyrus Edition
As a fan, I want to see the best possible team on the floor. I want to see combinations of players that give us the best possible chance to win. I do not want to see Adrian Griffin starting, and I certainly do not want to see Skiles try to teach Tyrus a lesson via DNP-CD.
Look, I have no illusions that Thomas is going to come in and dominate. But, haven't the Bulls looked a lot better when Thomas or Noah is on the floor? Those guys share some common traits, namely being active around the basket with rebounds, help defense, tips and this "energy" quality that seems to be the buzzword. It seems to me that one of those two players should be on the floor at all times (well, at least most of the time). I'm glad that Noah is getting some burn, but what is going on with Tyrus? Sitting him does not help the team and it does not help him develop.
Looking at the Celtics game, there was no way to get TT in there, even for 12 minutes? Are you kidding me? Deng is a red-hot 6 of 17 and runs for 41 minutes but there's no room for Tyrus? Not that one would sub for the other, but BG shoots 25% and stays on the floor for 39 minutes? The starters play heavy minutes and don't get it done. So, why not go to the complete bench? Oh yeah, Skiles Doghouse Syndrome.
Why am I paying $120 a seat for this?! Honestly, I feel like Skiles' rotations cheat the fans from being able to see the best possible Bulls' team. You want to punish a player? Make him run suicides after practice. Don't take it out on me.
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56 comments
Comments
FIRE SKILES NOW
by fireskiles on Dec 9, 2007 7:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I agree (kind of)
In the future, when the matchups allow: more Tyrus. But we didn't need Tyrus vs. the Celts; we just needed to make shots (which we didn't). That's not the rotation's fault.
(Now, if you want to blame Skiles and his staff for contributing to the poor shooting, either in skills development or the managing of the team psyche, that's another story . . .)
by arjoseph on Dec 9, 2007 9:25 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Excellent
by piccolomair on Dec 10, 2007 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think
by tyrus4prez on Dec 9, 2007 9:28 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Maybe a trade is looming
Maybe they picked up Nichols because they are going to trade TT for a SG.
by kylemcmahon on Dec 9, 2007 10:20 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Huh? You're making no sense
by GranvilleWaiters on Dec 9, 2007 10:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it is about winning.
Do what works: Noah works.
Skiles is a great coach. A big trade will happen for the Bulls before a coach change.
Can the bulls trade Noah and TT to the Knicks for Curry?
by chicago-homesick-blues on Dec 9, 2007 10:48 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Noah has been great...
I still think that outright benching him is a mistake for someone that young who I think still needs opportunities to show what he might have improved in.
by cranscape on Dec 9, 2007 11:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
When you say F * * * player development you
In the case of Scott Skiles, winning now would be at the expense not of draft picks being traded away so much as the cost of developing these young players.
It just seems to me that the Bulls are so dysfunctional that they should be building team chemistry, getting PT for Tyrus Thomas and Sefolosha, and un-learning all of the humiliatingly bad habits they picked up in the offseason. That's how you save the season. Not by playing Ben Wallace 48 minutes or Adrian Griffin any minutes and leaving two of your three high draft picks to rot on the bench.
by bullhockey on Dec 11, 2007 2:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
If he doesnt pan out, 2006 draft for PAxson will be a disgrace...you have a number two pick and the 13th or 16th whatever it was pick and none of them can crack the rotation? Thabo was picked ahead of brewer...really? Tyrus ahead of Aldridge? At this point even ahead of Rudy Gay sound ridiculous. I guess he could have messed up more and picked morrison...but that owuld have been just dumb. The 2006 nba draft is starting to produce some talent, unfortunately the bulls have none of it. I would be willing trade both tyrus and thabo for brewer if this shit continues.
by Sambossanova on Dec 10, 2007 12:19 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
remember...
by leeac on Dec 10, 2007 9:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How can i remember
by piccolomair on Dec 10, 2007 11:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i stand corrected...
by leeac on Dec 10, 2007 7:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
hehe
by piccolomair on Dec 11, 2007 12:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
Thomas and Thabo have been the exceptions to the rule, not the rule itself, regarding Skiles willingness to play young guys. He played younger players a ton, and even down the stretch last year Tyrus played steady and increasing minutes.
We're only 20 games in and Noah seems to have settled into a fairly consistent role over the last few games. I think that'll stay about where it is and slowly increase (of course there will be outliers here or there).
by Sports2 on Dec 11, 2007 7:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus played very little in the playoffs
by GranvilleWaiters on Dec 11, 2007 9:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're remembering incorrectly.
Against the Pistons, Tyrus played 19, 22, and 9 minutes in the first three games. That's hardly a "didn't start playing until they were down 0-3" situation.
by Sports2 on Dec 11, 2007 10:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"Skiles doesn't play young players."
Ben Gordon's rookie season: 24 min/g
Luol Deng's rookie season: 27 min/g
Skiles will play young guys. He just wants effort and results, and he's got a short leash.
by arjoseph on Dec 11, 2007 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It was a little different though
by Jaina on Dec 11, 2007 2:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm
Aside from that, think about joakim noah, and tyrus thomas. None are quite the same as ben gordon luol deng and kirk hinrich, even duhon. In that i mean, you look at kirk hinrich, hes quite, a typical coaches son, and duhon just has suck up written all over him. Deng and Gordon are always in the gym, always working out that the whole facility knows of thier hard work.
Joakim is still a rookie, and really his only talent is untangibles, energy and height. He has the work ethic, but is just so random its hard to tell what he can do. Tyrus, well for whatever reason he hasnt shown skiles his hard work. So skiles must doubt his ability too. Its not like he just instinctively chooses not to play young guys, the first batch of young guys were your basic goody goody type, noah and thomas arent. I can see noah getting lots of time next year, thomas still has to get skiles to trust him as a player.
When you think about it, i think thats the beef that Chandler had with skiles. Skiles doesnt want to go over what you should be doing when your practicing. He tells you what he wants out of you in game time, and he expects you to be a pro athlete and get to the point where you can do what you are asked....this is all my opinion and observation, but i guess i really hate how some people see it so black and white.
by piccolomair on Dec 13, 2007 2:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was oversimplifying
You can't treat all players the same. Tyrus was a project when they picked him up and they knew that. Tyson too (but less excuse for him since he had been in the league a few years before Skiles took over). But I feel that if Tyrus needs a little more direction, they should help him, the kid is 20 years old and if that's what they need to do to help him develop as a player, they should. Not all people can just be left to their own devices. I don't believe in like "special treatment" or something like that but when you pick a guy who clearly needs work you need to help him work.
by Jaina on Dec 13, 2007 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ah
Skiles has played noah, tyrus, and thabo, so it is possible to assume that he has an idea of what they are capable of, both good and bad. Take tyrus, on the one hand he gives you energy and hustle, and not to mention blocks and dunks that most humans cannot immitate. And yet, at the same time he is also the kind of player that commits a foul right after commiting the same foul. He still looks lost on defense, misses assignments, rushes his offense...etc.
The bulls need to get wins right now, and skiles is trying to get that done, its his main job. I know alot of people question alot of his moves, as do i, but one i do seem to understand is why thomas isnt played as much. With the bulls still struggling, playing tyrus might make things better, or dig a deeper hole for the bulls. Such is the same with any rookie.Lets also not forget that the power forward spot also contains the likes of Joe Smith (who despite being injury prone, and lacks stamina seems to be skiles go to forward), Nocioni(who should really just play sf, but is more often playing pf), thomas and noah (both who are fairly young players still learning the game).
Noch and Smith have been fairly consistent in what they bring to the table, so its easier to use those two before the newbies, and then it comes down to which newbie would do a better job helping the team win. Noah i think just gets the go ahead due to him being tall and because he has often been talked about working hard during practice.
Thomas i think will get more playtime near the end of the season, you can see him getting better since skiles threw him in teh dog house, so long as he is mentally able to handle skiles, i think skiles' old fashioned hard nose way of teaching is actually effective. Its just a matter of how long until he mentally wears down some of his students, which is a theory on what has happened to the bulls core, especially guys like gordon and deng (who are considering themselves stars) and kirk hinrich (who always seemed to have a low self confidence level).
by piccolomair on Dec 13, 2007 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's kinda funny
And then all my next point was that not all players are as NBA ready as the core was. I just didn't like the way that Thomas was cut so abruptly. If he only earns 10 min a game, that's all he earns, but I just want to see him play a least a little.
by Jaina on Dec 13, 2007 5:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
soka
by piccolomair on Dec 13, 2007 5:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's all good
by Jaina on Dec 13, 2007 6:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What?
by GranvilleWaiters on Dec 11, 2007 9:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
screw your memory
Brewer was the 14th pick, Bulls traded up to 13 to draft Sefolosha.
point being, both Aldridge and Brewer were available if the Bulls wanted them.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 11, 2007 9:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Corey v. Ronnie
by preverbal on Dec 11, 2007 10:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
which is fine
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 11, 2007 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting questions raised...
So where do the Bulls rank as regards player development ? Do they really have a system in place that ensures their young players will develop as much as they could/should ?
Sure doesn't feel that way right now, but maybe it's just that TT does not respond at all to the "coaching" put in place around him.
Would be interesting to have an insight into what the Bulls really do.
by Diabolo on Dec 10, 2007 7:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Player Devlopment
by hlac on Dec 10, 2007 11:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
More about strengths
Ronnie Brewer sat a lot last season. Utah had healthy vets at the SF. What they didn't have was a healthy backup for Boozer. They drafted him in Paul Milsapp. They asked Milsapp to rebound and defend the paint, two things he excels at. And the got this from a 2nd round pick.
Brewer plays more now because he's more familiar with the offense where Utah needs production from their SF.
Glen Davis does the same thing for Boston. What can Davis do for you NOW? He can take up space, use his weight to box out, and grab all the missed shots, and perhaps get a few putbacks.
With Tyrus you have to ask what can he do for you NOW that he excels at. With Noah playing, and playing better, the only way I see T2 getting burn is if Noah is in foul trouble or injured.
by NBA Observer on Dec 10, 2007 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting observation
by windycityhoops on Dec 10, 2007 2:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Get over it
I think we end up moving Noah or Thomas. Chicago wasn't the only team that wanted Tyrus. Other clubs also wanted to select Thabo, but Chicago surprised everyone and took him at 13.
by NBA Observer on Dec 10, 2007 3:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not on board with either
Really, punting two lottery picks and a full-boat of cap space in one offseason?
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2007 4:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know about "punting"
Also: we all say he should have drafted Aldridge to fit our need, but all anyone was saying that draft was that we needed a bigger backcourt, and that we needed to cover for Ben Gordon's lack of defense. Thabo was that "needs" guy. Look how that turned out. I would always rather have talent over needs.
by arjoseph on Dec 10, 2007 5:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry for the string post,
by arjoseph on Dec 10, 2007 5:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Too soon to give up on Tyrus
Are you saying it's time to "move" one of these recent picks for the best return the Bulls can get? Please give a trade proposal that gets CHI past BOS.
If they continue to lose more than win, I'd rather lose BG, Kirk, and BBen (Skiles too?) and start over with a true young core (that hit their prime when Boston's 3 are done). In fact that might be a blessing compared to a future of 1st and 2nd round exits.
by marionette on Dec 10, 2007 4:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
by windycityhoops on Dec 10, 2007 5:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I didn't forget the Magic, but because I've seen PHX beat them twice (their only quality wins, save HOU (and CLE?), they don't seem as "real" to me yet. But they should get there. Rashard and Hedo are easier to deal with than Allen and Pierce, but Howard will only become a worse problem for all. Another reason to blow it up? I'd love to add LBJ to Deng, Noah, Tyrus and Gray. To me, this poor start means this team will never win a Conference Finals (barring lucky breaks) with both Wallace and the small guards) I guess we'd disagree on what to keep and what to lose?
by marionette on Dec 10, 2007 7:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wallace and small guards thought
by windycityhoops on Dec 10, 2007 9:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You need to stop drinking the bong water.
by upther on Dec 11, 2007 1:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus
by tyrus4prez on Dec 10, 2007 4:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
even more frustrating
by hscs on Dec 10, 2007 4:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I totally agree
I also think the whole thing is strange. Thomas is a PF, Noah the (for now) backup C. There should be minutes (in theory) for both. Another mismanagement by Skiles right now is playing his starts for 40 minutes a game (minus Smith). That will catch up to everyone (especially BB) if he keeps that up. Noah should be getting the 12 or however many minutes Ben sits, and Thomas should get some time behind Smith and Noc at PF (since Noc splits time at SF). Not too hard, huh?
by Jaina on Dec 10, 2007 5:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yes
by windycityhoops on Dec 10, 2007 5:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, Skiles
by marionette on Dec 10, 2007 7:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I put this on the other thread
Kirk 34, BG 34, Du 10, Sefo 18, Lu 35, TT 25, Noc 24, BBen 32, Noah 18, JoeS 10.
Maybe I should make sig?
by marionette on Dec 10, 2007 7:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
At this point, I think priority #1 is winning
Depending, of course, on adjustments for matchups and hot hands, here's how I see the minutes breaking down well (on average, based on how people are playing right now):
PG: Kirk 22 min. + Duhon 26 min.
SG: Gordon 20 min. (until he earns more, per game basis) + Kirk 8 min. + Deng 8 min. + Thabo 12 min.
SF: Deng 30 min. + Noc 15 min. + TT 3 min.
PF: Smith 20 min. + Noc 20 min. + TT 8 min.
C: Big Ben 28 min. + Noah 20 min.
Ideally, I'd like to see something like:
Kirk 35, Duhon 15, Gordon 35, Thabo 11, Deng 35, Noc 25, TT 22, Noah 21, Big Ben 30, Smith 20. But that's only if we're winning. Whatever gets us to winning is the true ideal.
by arjoseph on Dec 10, 2007 7:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're tough on the Bens!
by marionette on Dec 10, 2007 7:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
apparently
by ScottieCartwright on Dec 11, 2007 8:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

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