Idle coaching hands are the lineup devil's tools

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 9:02 PM CST in News Comment 83 comments

The Sun-Times reported Tuesday afternoon (hattip to 'Big D' in the comments) that Skiles is considering starting Joe Smith ahead of Tyrus Thomas (who else would it be?). Quote the Skiles:

I've got to consider even starting Joe, getting him out there with as many busted coverages as we're having at beginning of games. We're struggling with the game plan. I have to take a look at that at some point.

There's no direct accusation by Skiles on Tyrus, and perhaps it means he's learned to quit that. Not that I would care if he did call out Thomas. I was at the game and didn't notice any Tyrus malfeasance, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm pretty sure he didn't allow Josh Howard to go bananas in his opening stint, but there could've been another mental error on Thomas' part.

It's shouldn't be a benchable offense however. I don't care about Skiles' media mindgames, I just care about the minutes. Not that I don't want Tyrus to ultimately become a smarter player, but how about Skiles letting him play through it and coaching him for once, instead of just yanking him? After not seeing any action after the opening 7:24 against Dallas, Tyrus may now likely be behind Smith, Noc, Noah, and heck probably Deng (in the tiny-ball lineup) at the 4.

And for what, to teach yet another lesson? Skiles should be focused on winning games, not teaching lessons (especially when the development usually boils down to 'try harder, guys'). But that'd imply his job is on the line, and maybe Pax has told him it's not.

It should be though. They need to win a lot of games, quickly. And playing Tyrus more helps that. And long-term, if this team goes anywhere it will depend more on the second overall pick than the ultimately replaceable coach.

Paxson needs to fire Skiles or trade Thomas, and I wouldn't want to trade Thomas unless it's for somebody good, and this can't help the ol' trade value. And a trade now is an admitted mistake by Paxson, which is something I doubt he wants to do this early in Thomas' career.

The papers have been pretty accurate in 'guessing' these lineup changes, but lets hope it's not actually happening. Joe Smith is doing fine when given the time, but he was a DNP on Tuesday due to old-man knees, and now he'll be in the starting lineup?

The lineup tinkering is as unnecessary as ever, and since Skiles has used incredibly small sample sizes before to justify these things, let it be known (not that any tinkering helps if the best players are bad) that the Bulls have looked better since Thomas' return to the starting lineup. But perhaps Skiles is micromanaging even further, and letting 7 minutes supercede that.

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starting Smith

as I've said previously, I've been for this from the start of the season. Why not give Thomas something to aspire to in starting. He's only a second year player, he can still get plenty of minutes coming off the bench and nothing is getting handed to him this way. Joe Smith ist the long term solution but he's a veteran, he can score in many different ways than Thomas and he's a smarter rebounder and defender. I like it.

by JSlakov on Dec 4, 2007 9:59 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

So that i dont post it a million times

http://www.blogabull.com/comments/2007/12/4/15747/5079/10#10

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Dec 4, 2007 10:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

What about starting Duhon and bringing Hinrich

off the bench. This may take pressure off Hinrich. He is clearly pressing. Playing against the second unit could help him regain confidence. Skiles - by benching TT takes away his confidence. Skiles approach seems to make the team tighter instead of helping them via trying some coaching that helps each individual player. You make a mistake with Skiles and you sit on the bench. This doesn't seem to apply to our $15 mil man.

piccolomair - how do you link as you did so the link scrolls down to the place you want?

by chgobr on Dec 5, 2007 7:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Bench Hinrich

Im a huge hinrich fan but ive already stated how i felt about this issue:
http://blogabull.com/comments/2007/11/25/164430/05/20?mode=alone;showrate=1#20

chgobr, if you click on that little link under menu that says "(your user name)'s Page", which is located above the post new diary link, you get your profile. Theres a tab that says comments, click on that and you can see the subjects of your recent comments. Next to the subjects is a wierd notation that says something in brackets
(i.e. all of my posts have [none/0] next to them)
Click the notation and it will get you to a seperat html that only shows your comment. If you click on the subject instead of the notation, you will get your comment plus the comments that replied to you.

If you want to do this with someone elses comments, just click on thier username and follow the same steps.
http://blogabull.com/comments/2007/12/4/22210/7819/3?mode=alone;showrate=1#3

Sorry if it was either confusing, or seemed like i was dumbing it down too much, i just wanted to try to explain myself completely so that everyone could understand.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Dec 5, 2007 1:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you!

by chgobr on Dec 5, 2007 2:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You did a great job explaing this!

by chgobr on Dec 5, 2007 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

picco are u defending skiles?

How can you start a player that you didn't even play the last game? If first round #9 Noah and first round #2 TT can't get time with a 4-10 team the Curry trade is a loss for the bulls. These are the pieces Pax put together and each player on the bulls has declined in value since their career started. Yes it was nice to see the bulls win games this week but its a mirage. Their long term success depends on the developement of their talent. TT, DENG, BG, NOAH, and KIRK all look worse this year. Lets get someone in here who can maximize talent instead of effort.

by Blacknight23 on Dec 5, 2007 7:53 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I don't mind

I don't mind if they start Smith as long as they play TT more than seven minutes. Smith can start and then sit down after five minutes or whatever, but at least have TT play a good twenty minutes a game. I'd rather they play Smith or TT than have Wallace in the entire game when he is playing crap like he was.

by cranscape on Dec 5, 2007 8:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

matchups determine minutes

Ben played very well against the Bobcats. He's the only defender than can muscle Emeka Okafor out of the paint and deny the low post entry pass. Ben should be on the floor whenever Okafor is getting minutes.

Tyrus and Smith should be out there together for some stretches when Okafor checks out. However, there's no reason why Skiles shouldn't go with Tyrus or Smith at center and Nocioni at pf.

I'd like to see Skiles put together a strategy that attacks the defensive weaknesses of the Bobcats. This means that whomever Derek Anderson is guarding should initiate the offense and Ben Wallace should set screens to bring Okafor out of the paint. Run this all day until Higgins subs or rotates the defensive assignments. Make Derek Anderson play defense and get Okafor out of the paint.

by NBA Observer on Dec 5, 2007 8:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If Smith starts

he's guaranteed 12 minutes (6 to start each half).

Skiles has also stated his desire yesterday (as if we didn't hear it the first time) to play Nocioni more.

I don't think Tyrus sniffs 20.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think so either.

But I'd like him to play 20. sigh It is another one of those moments where I think maybe we should trade someone. Because letting TT rot on the bench makes no sense to me. And if we are so "deep" that TT should be benched then it feels like we should be winning more games because of all that implied talent.

by cranscape on Dec 5, 2007 12:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's not Thomas vs Skiles

Apparently Smith's knee was the reason he didn't play in the last game.

Noah's been getting more and more minutes, but the right decision for a team with playoff expectations is not to start playing inexperienced big men. I daresay that playing them huge minutes would lead to more losing in the short-run and thus render the Curry trade more of a loss. The opportunity cost of the Curry trade was in the short run anyway (having a post threat like Curry would make us better now... "winning" the trade means getting something worth losing his benefits in the long run.

That's true for all those guys. Maximizing wins is the only thing that matters in the long run, not "winning" trades or maximizing player values, both of which seem to be about Pax's rep and not winning games. I mean, if you think the right idea is to play Noah and TT 30 mpg no matter what for the next month, you better be prepared for some losing. But you might "maximize their value" in the process because they'll put up better numbers. Kirk, Ben and Lou's numbers are likely to suffer for this, however, so you'll be between a rock and a hard place.

I think there are a couple of options.

Keep plugging and try to teach Thomas.
Trade him for whatever you can get now and cut your losses.
Let him play streetball for a month or two, absorb the additional losses it causes, build his value and then trade him.

by Sports2 on Dec 5, 2007 8:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

but they're not winning games

and last season Tyrus was one of their best frontcourt players, not just a project.

I'm starting to like the idea of streetball over skilesball. A streetball team may get over 80 points.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 9:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He wasn't exactly a star last year

First, I wouldn't overstate his contributions last year. He played well toward the end but he didn't play a lot.

But again, I don't think the key thing is he was given a pretty fair amount of leeway in his play. Not only should that go not happen, it has to happen as we've got less effective options this year (older Wallace, Smith less effective than PJ defensively, Noah but a rookie).

I think the offensive problems issues could be addressed though, but I'm not completely sure what's going on there. Last year they kept him close to the basket and one thing I've noticed this year is that he's coming out more and Deng's going in more to post up. Deng's developing a post-up game was much bally-hooed, but so far it's been pretty much a flop because he's been uncomfortable doing it and it might be part of what's taking Thomas outside where he's not effective. This is an issue the Bulls can address, even though I think it's only about a third of the problem on offense for those two guys.

by Sports2 on Dec 5, 2007 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Awesome Points

I think part of thomas looking good last year had to do with the core truly looking like our core. The bulls were basically doing what they are supposed to do, so if thomas would give the team an amazing dunk or a miracle tip in, it was great, but it wasnt like he was leading the team. He was just doing what the core couldnt do, get the block, catch and dunk. Right now the core cant shoot or play solid defense, and so though a few blocks and dunks would be nice, they wont save the team when they are shooting in the 30s.

Also i agree with the deng posting up comment, i saw it in the preseason and it was fine, i saw it at the begining of the seaosn and it was fine, but now its annoying. Deng's specialty was cutting in when no one was looking, or when the lane was blocked hitting a mid range jumper. It was the jumper that opened up lanes, and it was the cutting that gave him a nice view for a jumper. Teams seem to be blocking down the lanes, so deng should be relying on his sweet touch from 20. Thomas is unstoppable when he is in the air, so thats where he belongs, in the paint, 5 feet off the ground. Teh bulls really gotta go back to playing like last year.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Dec 5, 2007 2:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Im not defending skiles per se

I was just shining some light on that question of why tyrus only saw 7 minutes. Although i must admit, i dont think skiles is a horrible coach, and i like him quite a bit, i do believe that skiles does very little to help team chemistry, but i assume he knows this as well and hired his assistant coachs accordingly.

On thomas, if i were skiles i dont think i would start him. I would give him alot of minutes, but i wouldnt start him. He lacks experience and maturity on the court. This will only come by playing so its good to give him something other than garbage time. My ideal situation would be to have thomas and noah in at once, skiles often complains about lack of energy, and if those two in at once doesnt inject the team with adrenaline, nothing will.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Dec 5, 2007 1:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Tyrus = ERob

This article by Mike McGraw (apologies if it was posted already) carefully tried to explain things without saying Tyrus=ERob, but not only is it a pretty appropriate description, it fits perfectly with what I've seen.

Essentially, McGraw pointed out that ERob's success was a product of Paul Silas asking him to do very little but what he liked to do, and not to think much at all. ERob gets to the Bulls and everyone expects him to actually play within a structured offense. He was clueless and mad no one will let him just "go play".

Like ERob, I think the issue is that Tyrus' fundamental lack of basketball IQ is exposed. From my understanding of things, he was asked to do very little at LSU defensively and even less offensively. Last year the Bulls asked him to do less and extended him a lot of lenience because he was a raw as sushi rookie.

So what you had was a progressively bigger impact on the court by Tyrus, but inconsistently and situationally.

Move forward a year however, and my belief is Thomas is still about as unwilling or unable to play within the team strategies as he was as a rookie, as he was last year.

So what do you do with a guy like this. Is he good enough that you throw out all your team concepts and play streetball because he can't play organized basketball? I don't think so. He's a 6'7" 215lb guy who can't hit a jump shot (making him fundamentally unlike even ERob in a bad way). More to the point, that might work (and I'd admit Tyrus might be very effective) with Baron Davis or Steve Nash just running and gunning it to him. But we don't have a guy like that. Or other team components like that. And we don't have a style like that. And oh yeah, that style typically gets demolished once the playoffs start. Our lack of half-court ability is already of concern to me without going further in that direction.

I don't think the "let him play and coach him later" approach is likely to work either. For every minute a player is on the court, he's probably been coached for five. In practice, film sessions, one-on-one, etc. A coach really does have limited options when it comes to a guy like this. Once you start doling out entitlement minutes, how do you reinforce the good things and weed out the negative ones? Obviously just talking about it and demonstrating it in non-game situations isn't makeing a difference. And following on piccolomair's point, are folks really ready to have Tyrus on the court waiving off and ignoring his teammates?

I don't think you can get blood from a stone, and I think a lot of the frustration directed toward Skiles this year ought to be directed elsewhere. Not that he's without sin, but I've pretty much concluded that it's not the fact that Skiles is a poor fit, it's the fact that Thomas is a very poor fit for this team.

by Sports2 on Dec 5, 2007 8:15 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

2nd year expectations

What were the expectations from Tyrus Thomas this season? I think the absence of PJ Brown has put undue pressure on Tyrus to do the things that PJ Brown did for Chicago last season. We signed Joe Smith to do what PJ Brown did.

What has Tyrus done or not done this season to warrant a comparison to Eddie Robinson?

Tyrus was raw player last year. In order to be great, someone had to LEAD HIM. The same is true this season. The Chicago guards need to LEAD Tyrus. They should be able to create opportunities that take advantage of Tyrus' talents.

I could make a case that Richard Jefferson is basically Eddie Robinson, but he was saved and converted into a potential NBA All-Star by Jason Kidd.

In summary, where is Tyrus failing this season where he was expected to execute?

by NBA Observer on Dec 5, 2007 8:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Did you read the previous post?

Tyrus doesn't seem to be able to function in the offense. The guards are leading him, and he isn't following. He is expected to be able to know where to be in the offense and apparently he can't do that. The comparison to ERob is that Tyrus is an athletic guy who doesn't function well in a structured offense. Is that clear enough?

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 5, 2007 8:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Pretty much everywhere

Smith was signed to do what PJ did (and hasn't worked out well in that role, for reasons I've mentioned), and Wallace has been doing more this year of what PJ was asked to do last year. In short, be the strong side big man.

Tyrus has been asked to execute in the role of the weakside big man. Defensively he gets pushed around, doesn't come to double when he should, doesn't box out and doesn't switch when he should. He's shown me he can't play within the Bulls defensive scheme. What he can do is play man defense, but he's small and weak and can't play it against big strong guys (which is most everyone he'd face as a 4.

In short, the Bulls defensive scheme, as I understand it, should hide this weakness as much as it can be hidden and allow him to roam and block shots. But he doesn't understand how to do that; he only knows "Play that guy" and "play that area"

Offensively, to take advantage of his talents, he needs literally LEAD the guards. They can't generate any points from him if he's behind them coming up the court! I will say that Duhon is the only one that's really sparked him because I think he's the only one comfortable enough making the kind of passes only he can catch, but most of the time he's just out of position; behind the ball and the team in transition or out on the perimeter more or less standing still when he's being asked to run out in front of the ball in transition and cut to the basket in the half-court.

Those are the specifics as I see them of what he's being asked (and failing) to do.

The ERob comparison seems apt because like ERob, I don't think what's being asked of Tyrus is all that much. The RJeff comparison isn't because he's seemed like a fairly intelligent (basketball IQ I mean here) player who can figure out how to play the game. Certainly a guy like Kidd maximizes his strengths, but I think he's a decent player in any case. Kidd and the Nets have been playing the Princeton offense for years, which, while it isn't the triangle or anything, is more than a Nellie style run and gun with the PG chucking it to whomever he sees.

by Sports2 on Dec 5, 2007 9:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

am I the only one who thinks

Tyrus has a fine basketball IQ? At least, when he has the ball he seems to, he can look for cutters and makes good passes.

I see none of these players are doing well offensively, and Tyrus gets singled out. Nocioni has the worst basketball IQ on the team, and all Skiles can say is he needs play more.

It's also help if we had anyone who could throw a lob pass.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 9:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

a fine IQ for the Bulls

The whole team has mental problems. Thomas doesn't stand out as the guy who doesn't know how to play.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 5, 2007 10:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Stop the press

We actually agree on this.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program...

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 5, 2007 11:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

I've seen several good passses while in the post from him. Granted most of them have gone to BigBen who does nothing with them. Also, I have seen some terrible passes from him, but the point is WHY IS HE SINGLED OUT? When you are afraid to make a mistake you play tentative and normally make more mistakes. I am tired with SKiles quick hook with him. He was the same with Gordon when he first came into the league and when he let Gordon play he won the 6th man award along with several game winning shots. I don't believe Tyrus is perfect but to take him out of the game with not giving him a shot to redeem himself is beyond ludcaris. Deng was dominated on both ends of the floor, but no benching? Skiles keeps going back n forth with him and it seems as if he is blaming Ty for our poor start which is hardly the case...

by tyrus4prez on Dec 5, 2007 10:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nocioni

I don't understand why Nocioni is your trump card to explain most of the Bulls woes when he is clearly the most consistent player on the team.

Does any other Bull attack the rim like Nocioni? He's the one guy that has displayed any passion on the floor this season.

by NBA Observer on Dec 5, 2007 10:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I was just bringing up the 'IQ' part of it

But if I pick on Noc it's due to this perspective: If Nocioni's our best player this team blows, so anytime I see less of him I consider it progress.

Unfortunately, you're correct: he has been their best player this year. So, that's great that he's doing his usual thing, but I can't be too excited over it.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thomas attacks the rim.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Dec 5, 2007 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Matt

you have to stop with the Noc bashing. The IQ thing is completely false. It destroys your credibility.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 5, 2007 10:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well you can call it 'passion'

and I call it bad IQ. They're both pretty hard-to-determine terms.

But the roaming on defense, fruitless hacking and/or flopping, jumping on teammates' backs for rebounds, chucking...I don't think he's a smart player. And he's limited so he likely has to play out of control to be effective, so I'm not necessarily knocking it. And I like the fact that he's a chucker and aggressive offensively on a team that needs it.

My problem is this: There is a solid reasoning behind singling out Tyrus for mistakes and not someone like Nocioni, because Noc is what he is and Tyrus needs to learn to get better. But I don't think cutting minutes is the answer, especially for a team that can't really afford to 'develop' by cutting minutes to an effective, if 'low-IQ' (Tyrus, I mean) player.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Noc doesn't make that many mistakes

not nearly as many as it might seem. When he's out on the floor, he's usually at the 4, so he's supposed to be guarding the basket. When sluffs off of his guy to take the charge and the ball gets kicked out for a three, he's actually playing it the correct way. The fact that he isn't quick enough to close out is annoying, but that's the way the bulls have set up their defensive rotations. It's also the reason why Hinrich seems to get beat off of the dribble. He's funneling guys to the "shotblockers." The problem recently has been that the guy setting the picks have been grabbing the bulls big men and pushing them back into Hinrich's path so that it takes him a lot longer to get around the picks. That gives the ballhandler enough time to get an open shot, which they invariably seem to hit.

Noc's ability to anticipate plays on both ends is higher than most of the other bulls, at least IMHO. It needs to be because he is maybe the least athletically gifted player out there. If he wasn't able to anticipate, he wouldn't get nearly the number of charges or rebounds that he does defensively, nor get to the line like has been offensively. So I'd say he's got a really high "basketball IQ."

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 5, 2007 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Basketball IQ != Passing

Thomas has nice court vision, but I think there's a big difference between having a knack for nifty passes and knowing the where's and why's of being on the court.

I also don't think Thomas is getting singled out. I think there are two things going on. First, his issues are probably more obvious and fixable. A coach can't make a guy hit a shot or make a good decision in the spur of the moment during a game, but he can. Those things are streaky by nature and confidence related. I'm not saying coaching does nothing there, but it's obviously difficult. Thomas' issues, on the other hand, seem very correctable from a coaching standpoint. While Skiles can't very well simply tell Gordon to "make his shots", I don't think it's unreasonable for him to tell Thomas to beat the guards down the court and expect results.

The second thing going on is that the Bulls have options for filling Tyrus' minutes. Smith theoretically can do that. Gordon, Deng and Hinrich play awful than there's not a lot of other options to replace what they bring to the table.

Beyond that, Skiles' certainly was on Kirk, benching him, on Gordon (who was the obvious target of the "timid around the basket" points Skiles made recently, and on Deng, who everyone acknowledged got eaten alive by Howard.

But really, those guys, how much can you do with them beside tell them what to work on and work on their confidence? That's a tough spot... I advocated benching Kirk a while back because I think there's a viable replacement in the short-run and because I think he needed the message. I dunno if the second half proved I was right, but he certainly seemed to be a little more focused on the basics when a fire was lit under him.

by Sports2 on Dec 5, 2007 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sure 'knowing the offense' is more fixable

but is it fixable by getting minutes cut? And I think Joe Smith is a fine fill-in, but only in spurts. He'll be out by February (and so will Noc for that matter) if they're overplayed.

I agree with your premise that it's a small issue until Hinrich/Gordon/Deng play better. But that's why I think the whole lineup shifting idea in the first place is not entirely necessary.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

great post

If the plan was to win immediately, then Thomas was the wrong pick. While there's plenty to bash on Skiles about, this mess falls on Pax's lap. And not for the Kobe talk either. Has trading two 7 footers ever yielded less in return?

by windycityhoops on Dec 5, 2007 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Night and Day

my friend. Mike McGraw is comparing a guy who as a freshman effectively took his Div I team to the Final Four, where he shut down one of the best players in the tournament (Aldridge), and who has an entire career ahead of himself, to an underachieving DIV II player who was an undrafted free agent and had his proverbial cup of coffee in the league before a crappy attitude caused him to be bought out by a team that already had a huge talent shortage, that's how bad he was. His career high was 21 points, for goodness sake.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/eddie_robinson/bio.html

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/tyrus_thomas/bio.html

If Tyrus Thomas ends up being an Eddie Robinson, he will have been a much, much bigger disappointment than even ERob could have ever been.

"But Butch, you said we could challenge you anytime we wanted to." "That's because I thought you never would."

by bullhockey on Dec 5, 2007 2:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It wasn't a career comparison to ERob

it was just noting the similarity in that ERob and Thomas (at this point) both appear to be guys you have to play to the way they want you to play, not the way you want them to play in order to get anything out of them.

I agree, of course, that Tyrus has a lot more going for him than ERob did, although in his short time in the league he's generated more than his share of "bad attitude" stories.

I think the best comparison as far as an actual player to ERob, at this point, is probably Chris Wilcox. He's another guy with SF size who can't play outside and who couldn't consistently play inside until he filled out. Like Thomas he's a dunk machine with wonderful one-on-one abilities who was never asked to do much thinking (I read one account, which I believe, that Lonny Baxter and Juan Dixon had to tell him where to go on most every possession Maryland had when he was there). He's had several stretches of putting up impressive numbers but on the whole he's been very pedestrian and doesn't seem to contribute a whole lot to winning basketball.

by Sports2 on Dec 5, 2007 7:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

KC Johnson

was on CTL last night and he thinks Skiles should play the veterans. He said they need to win now and it will take the veterans to do that. He said the young guys can learn more next year but if this team wants to win now and they can't do it with the young guys.

Not that I agree with this but I'm just repeating what KC said. KC said he has never seen a Bulls team play this bad in the years he's been covering them.

Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 5, 2007 8:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

He was on with North this morning

and basically said the same thing. 'Trust the veterans more'.

Everyone else was right: this team is geared for early playoff exit. My bad.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 9:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

oh, and he also mentioned

that Tyrus tries to create too much with the ball, and when he has the ball KC usually thinks "this isn't going to end well".

I always think "at least someone can get to the basket", but such is the lonely life of a Tyrus apologist.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 9:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

KC on Joe Smith

Also thought it was interesting that KC said the Adam's quote about Smith's knee acting up was hogwash, and that he has been going hard in practice everyday.

by mruntouchable on Dec 5, 2007 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Skiles said

in the Trib article that Smith hasn't been "moving particularly well" which backs up Adams. Unless something else is up?

by Jaina on Dec 5, 2007 11:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Bulls problems in a nutshell...

1. Ben Gordon is needs to improve his shooting.

He is too short to drive the lane without help from the spacing he would receive from defenders over defending his jump shot. WHat happened to the tireless Gordon who spends hours and thousand of jumpshots to perfect his shooting??? I don't see the fruits of his effort, if he has been doing it, this year.

2. Luol Deng needs to step up his game against good players.

You can't play the Bobcats or Hawks ever day. So learn ways to score against good players. How else do you expect to sign that max contract Lu !

3. Cut down Ben Wallace's minutes.

How can you justify playing him for defensive purposes when his defensive numbers are atrocious! Again, he is a current typical Bull who dominates against crappy teams but has severe nut-shrinkage problems against good teams.

Fluctuate Kirk's pt with Duhon until one of them starts playing consistently. This, at least lately, has been happening so I'll give Skiles a tiny bit of credit for this.
Give Noah and TT playing time EACH FRIGGIN QUARTER. You don't have to play them the entire game, just spread it out more. Don't play them one quarter and then bench them for the rest of the game.

Skiles may not realize this, but if the Bulls have any chance of taking the next step, these kids have to perform and improve. No way will this happen with them losing confidence with themselves and the hopes that Skiles will play them more. I am already getting Tyson Chandler/dog house flashbacks!

6. Noc, stop being such a chucker!

Hate to break to all the Andres fans out there, but he can't wait to just chuck up a jumpshot from anywhere on the court. I think he does have talent, just wish he used his offensive skills smarter.

That is all. Pax give me a ring if you need any more advice.

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 5, 2007 10:06 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Noc should shoot

He's the best shooter on the team right now. If he's open, he better shoot the basketball.

He was a "chucker" in the first few games where he wasn't hesitating to shoot the 3 point shot, but lately he is passing on some perimeter attempts to go to the rim.

If I am Skiles and I want a bucket or free throws I'm running an iso for Nocioni. If Nocioni is consistently set up with offensive plays, the Bobcats will double him.

by NBA Observer on Dec 5, 2007 10:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Noc does chuck it

but he also consistently attacks the rim.

I like most of your list though. Mine:

Ben Gordon, attack the basket. He makes Jamal Crawford look like Bonzi Wells these days.
End the Deng as a post-up player experiment for the season. Make it a project in the off-season to get another 10 lbs of muscle on him so he doesn't get pushed around. Bring him out more on offense for more of the same kind of screens and curls he hit relentlessly last year and get Tyrus closer to the basket more where he can dunk it, get fouled, or get a lob.
More Duhon until Kirk snaps out of his funk, and more Kirk for Gordon unless he shows some balls driving to the basket.

I thought about maybe swapping Deng and Thomas' defensive roles but thought better of it. Put Thomas on the more athletic guy and let Deng guard the slower guy. I don't know that this will work because, as noted, Deng's not that strong and might get pushed around too much, and Thomas has a tendency to not get back to his man when he leaves to double (as the Bulls defense frequently requires). This will be especially bad the more athletic and strong shooting an oppoent Thomas is supposed to be guarding. Defense largely hasn't been our problem so on second thought its probably best not to monkey around with this too much.

More Smith at the 4 and Noc at the 3 if Deng's not playing well.
Consistent role and minutes for Noah as Wallace's backup. I don't care if Noah thinks he's a 4 or not; given the rest of our roster, this is where he needs to be.

by Sports2 on Dec 5, 2007 11:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Luol-post option

it's a work in progress. The real problem is that they're likely trying it more often then they'd like because the outside shots aren't falling.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

David Thorpe chimes in on the line-up change

Gordon, Deng, Noch, Noah, Wallace. I'd try that group, run my offense through Deng inside and out, have Noch and Gordon running high pick and pops, and dominate the glass.

Thorpe is a huge "energy" guy and has always been in love with Noah so the lineup doesn't surprise me much.

by upther on Dec 5, 2007 12:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

link?

Thorpe also is a big Luol Deng guy, and has much more confidence than me in his ability to 'run' anything.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry, forgot the link.

It's in his chat today.

by upther on Dec 5, 2007 12:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I should've said HUGE Luol Deng guy

Someone asked if he'd trade Hinrich+Deng for Carmelo Anthony:

If I'm Denver, you bet. Chicago, no way. Deng is as classy as they come and just 22. Deng led his team to a playoff series win. 'Melo has yet to do even that.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I saw that gem too and laughed heartily

I'm pretty sure there would be no hesitation to give up Deng & Kirk in order to get Melo. Can't imagine Denver wanting to do that though.

by upther on Dec 5, 2007 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If it's Skiles vs. Thomas....

Then Thomas has to go. A coach who has proven that he can win in Chicago versus a player who hasn't proven anything. That's an easy choice....Fortunately, the choice doesn't have to be made. Put away the pitchforks.

For the love of God, rebound the ball.

by Jack Cobra on Dec 5, 2007 12:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I don't know what chicago has to do with it

but Coaches are easier to replace than lottery picks.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 12:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Skiles has won everywhere

thomas has done what? I see all this love for Ty, and I'll agree...he has shown flashes, but at some point he needs to man up and control his own destiny. If he wants to play more, then play the right way. Force Skiles to play him because he's playing so well.

Thomas goes, Skiles stays. They are building an organization here, with an organizational way of working as a team. To the Bulls, Skiles is more valuable right now. The Bulls have shown they have no problem trading their own high draft picks in the past (Chandler, Curry, Brand).

For the love of God, rebound the ball.

by Jack Cobra on Dec 5, 2007 1:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thomas went to the Final 4, so what?

You may be right that to the Bulls, organization is more important than talent.

but then they're morons.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 1:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Seriously?

That's all you have for me? His college stuff where he played one full season?

What has he done in the NBA? You know, where he gets paid to play and needs to prove himself.

Here you go...from his freshman profile (before his redshirt season). How many of these weaknesses has he improved upon? Sounds like a lot of the same things the Bulls are concerned about. I guess the question is whether people blame Ty or Skiles for this.

Weaknesses: Unproven, must prove himself on the college level ... Must put on a good deal of weight as he can be pushed around due to lack of bulk . He needs at least 20-25 pounds of muscle ... How well he weight trains and maintains his agility will be huge ... He's so talented he can get away with not hustling or working hard, so staying intense and focused is important ... Needs to become better conditioned, gets winded easily ... Has a bit of a hitch on his free throw shot ... He's a risky pick because it's uncertain how his body will turn out. Will he be able to add the weight?

For the love of God, rebound the ball.

by Jack Cobra on Dec 5, 2007 2:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and what has Skiles won?

that's a trick question: he's won nothing. His TEAMS have won, which a Tyrus Thomas has more involvement in than a coach, usually. Your comparison of the 'winning' Thomas has done to that of what Skiles had done was silly in the first place, which is why you got a lame but applicable answer.

And those weaknesses sound like something a coach could really help. No responsibility for that?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 2:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You are really drinking the Kool-Aid that you made

Skiles has brought in a new way of playing to each organization he's been the head coach for and that's changed each organization for the better. The players play harder, the teams win more games, etc...that's what Skiles does. Seven seasons coaching, five playoff appearances.

You don't need me to point that out, do you? It's well documented. Find me extensive documentation on what Thomas has done outside of the Final Four against teams with weak inside presences. To try to compare the resume of Skiles with that of Thomas is pointless. There is no comparison.

I got a lame answer because....that's the kind of answers there are for this issue when you want Skiles gone.

Let it go. It's not going to happen. There is no point in discussing it with you anymore.

For the love of God, rebound the ball.

by Jack Cobra on Dec 5, 2007 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

the Suns ended up in Starbury Land

and the Bulls currently stink. Way to go, Scott.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 5, 2007 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Skiles

rotations or lack thereof have been criticized for quite some time. Even when they were winning I questioned a lot of his decisions. Skiles teams have never been able to get to the next "level"...His players have outgrown him, he messes with his players too much through the media and plays favorites.

by tyrus4prez on Dec 5, 2007 3:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

"there is no comparison"

right, one's a player and one's a coach. I believe that's 'well-documented', somewhere.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 3:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it's a really easy choice

Skiles is in essentially a contract year, can be replaced fairly easily, has less value to the team than Chris Duhon, and Tyrus Thomas was acquired by trading the #2 pick. The Bulls could be a 20 win team this season, and still not draft that high again.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 5, 2007 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe they both should go

The fact I've been pointing out what Thomas' faults are (IMO) doesn't mean I think Skiles gets a free pass. I just don't think the commonly voiced criticisms of Skiles are the right ones. I actually think his in-game decisions are usually pretty good and I recognize it's hard to teach young players without both the carrot and the stick.

What I do think are problems are his issues with players... he appears to have played a significant role in the departure of several guys who can play in the league, and whether it's deserved, the pretty routine criticism of players to the media is not a good thing. Of course, Gregg Popovich has said things about guys that would make Skiles blush, but he's got some leeway there.

But philosophically, I do wonder if he's really developed any skills for these guys (most of them, I suspect, have done it on their own), how much of a role he's had running them off, and how well he'd make use of really good players, especially big ones. I sometimes wonder if he doesn't consider bigs elaborate props for use by guards.

All that being said, the consensus has been the Bulls have been more than the sum of their parts during his tenure. People ought to look around the league at some of the coaching dogs around (Mike Woodson, Randy Whittman, etc) before they think he can be easily replaced.

As far as Thomas, lottery picks can't be easily replaced, but the lottery pick is spent. All you can do now is consider how good the player really is. And so far I wish I had the lottery pick back.

by Sports2 on Dec 5, 2007 8:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

For who, though?

Roy is the only one I'd even consider. I don't see Aldridge getting any time last year since he brought nothing P.J. didn't.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Dec 6, 2007 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

E-Rob

reincarnated as Tyrus to haunt Paxson for kicking him ("E-Rob") out of the NBA?

Wow! This should be a movie called ... "I remember what you did 5 seasons ago"

Does this mean Paxson will get the boot this time?

It's amazing what ideas chronic losing produces!

by exult463 on Dec 5, 2007 12:48 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

the bottom line hasn't changed

if the bulls are looking to win this year and next, they better not fire skiles, unless pax has got someone waiting in the wings who he knows will change things right away. given pax and skiles relationship, i doubt skiles would get canned before the end of his deal. and like my buddy cobra said, skiles has won in the nba, and done it consistently with the suns and bulls, so i dont think skiles is the problem. bad, underachieving, frustrating seasons happen sometimes in professional sports, and there is no reasonable explanation. a fluke bad year, maybe this young bulls team was due to hit a rough patch. they are in one of the worst shooting funks i have ever seen, you have to figure eventually they will work their way out of it. what else can you do but wait??? there is no quick fix, you have to keep shooting and stay aggressive on d and o.
also....
what is the point of trading TT??? we have had him for a little over one year!!!!!! let him grow and develop. Thomas is not a man yet, i mean come on, it is just reality that you must have more patience with younger players, and benching them is not always the worst thing in the world. lack of minutes should be motivating TT right now. We all have seen flashes of brilliance from Tyrus, we all have seen dumbass, young tyrus doing stupid sh** out there. he is young, he is supposed to be dumb and inconsistent, he is still learning how to play pro ball. you just hope there is no lack of trust with TT and the coaching staff, because if there is, then TT may be a lost cause. tyrus has to want it bad enough to play flawlessly on d and play smart enough to fit into the offense. the few minutes he did play on monday, he was lost, you could see it. not helping on d, not knowing where he should be on o, etc... TT will be fine as long as he keeps busting his ass and listens to what skiles and staff are telling him. tyrus hasnt earned anything yet. and besides, we wont get much in return for him and he is still on his rookie deal, so he is not expensive. skiles and TT are not the issue with the slow start, the rest of the starters have been the problem. if hinrich, bg, and deng score with consistency, everything else will work itself out and the bulls will be back on the right track... sorry my post was so long

by Conor on Dec 5, 2007 1:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Disagree

KH, BG and Deng will not improve their shooting much b/c there will always be blanket coverage on them. Since our 4 and 5 can't collectively average a double double, all the opposing D goes to our shooters (particularly Deng b/c Ben is too small to drive and kick). Until someone commands a consistent double team down low, get used to what you have been seeing. We have been exposed.

by windycityhoops on Dec 5, 2007 1:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

good point

i agree with you that we really need a scoring presence down low. i really hope pax will go after gasol now, because he seems to be the odd man out in the grizz new system, and he would certainly free up the guys on the perimeter.
but what i have been noticing more with our scoring trio is that they are missing shots that they were making easily last year. a lot. opponents have always played us the same way, these guys have always been our offense, even when we had no post presence, and they were still putting up solid numbers. they are missing shots this year that have normally made their entire NBA careers.
but, unfortunately, there is a strong possibilty you are 100% correct, thus, making a deal for gasol, or any other scoring big man imperative

by Conor on Dec 5, 2007 2:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

On shooting

If Chicago is shooting 45% from the field this team is 11-4 instead of 4-11.

by NBA Observer on Dec 5, 2007 2:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

couldn't have said it

better myself... so what do you think??? will the bulls eventually start hitting their jumpers ????

by Conor on Dec 5, 2007 3:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh gawd, the stress

As difficult as it is for Chicago to play even better defense than they are, it can happen. Thinking about that is actually less stressful that thinking about Chicago hitting all the shots they are missing.

We're nearly one and half offensive rebounds per game better than the 2nd best O rebounding team in the league. I'd rather shoot 45% from the field than lead the NBA in offensive rebounding.

by NBA Observer on Dec 5, 2007 3:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Good point! Focusing on the shooting problem just

adds more pressure. Let's utilize our energy from the losing angst and up our defensive intensity. This can lead to turnovers and easy points, which we desperately need.

by chgobr on Dec 5, 2007 4:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Kelly Dwyer was wooed by Jamie Mottram

Which I think will work out for everyone.

And in one of his first posts, he thinks "the wheels have fallen off" the Skiles regime.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 3:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

unfortunately

all the other nonsense going on made the Ben Wallace 48 minutes easy to miss, but KD just convinced me it was as stupid as thawing out Sweetney against the Pistons in the playoffs.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 5, 2007 3:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah its up there

the other famous one being 'Veektor, get in there and check LeBron'.

I'm sure there are others.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 3:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The problem

isn't that he played Wallace 48, it's that Wallace put up 4 and 8 in 48 minutes two nights after putting up 10 and 19. Nobody has any idea what these guys are going to do. Skiles also benched Kirk in an effort to get BG going by pairing him with Duhon. This was also two night after BG put up 34, he followed it up with 10.

What alternative does Skiles have to Wallace against Diop and Dampier. Nobody on the bulls besides Wallace matches up with those two. Diop and Dampier only combined for 4 points and 4 offensive boards, so it wasn't like Wallace was letting them get a bunch of putbacks or anything, which they would be more likely to do against the smaller Tyrus and the weaker Noah.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 5, 2007 3:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

the Bobcats can't rebound

Wallace's 19 was a lot, but not entirely unexpected.

There's always an alternative to playing a guy 48 minutes, especially if he's not having a great game. Isn't Gray getting hyped from within the organization because he is the Bulls' answer to the Elden Campbells out there?

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 5, 2007 3:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hollinger on Hinrich

I'm listening to "NBA Dish w/ Chad Ford" on ESPN.COM. Chad has John Hollinger on the show. Hollinger just described Kirk Hinrich as "a CBA player".

by NBA Observer on Dec 5, 2007 3:36 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Damn you Hanley

Now he says "It appears Bulls coach Scott Skiles will stay with the same starting lineup".

I believe this is the second time they've yanked our collective crank.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 3:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

So?

This lineup was good the first time against the Bobcats. I can't see why you would change it.

Perhaps against the Pistons it will change.

by NBA Observer on Dec 5, 2007 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

uh, yeah?

Is this in response to me? one of those railing for 24 hours about the proposed lineup change?

I agree, I don't see why he'd change it either. I'm sad that all the hand-wringing was for a proposed change that wasn't real.

Nobody's fault but the press.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 3:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i know this will never happen...

but as long as we are talking line up changes...

why not start noc at the 2???? he is our best shooter so far this year, and he would solve the small back court problem. its not like he is too big and slow for the 2, and he could use his size against smaller, quicker guards. i am still a firm believer in bringing bg off the bench. who cares who starts anyway, its who finishes the game that matters. i realized on monday the bulls need to absolutely bring it defensively the first quarter of games, and a starting backcourt of kirk and noc could at least scare the crap out of back courts of most NBA teams. we need something to offset our slow starts offensivly, and besides, noc is shooting and scoring better than gordon is right now anyway.

i know i will get a lot of flack for this, but i am just thinking outside of the box

by Conor on Dec 5, 2007 4:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

he is too big and slow for the 3

let alone the 2

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 4:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

which Bull can most immediately help

Matt, I know you're frustrated in general about Skiles' handling of Tyrus & Noc--you've been consistent on that all last year even when the team was doing well. But Henry linked to this, and ESPN is advertising it at the bottom of pages as a "firing Skiles" solution. I just don't believe firing Skiles will have much short or even medium impact in the Bulls' current suckitude, and I'm guessing you don't either? Just clarifying for the ESPN traffic coming through :)

I may be wrong, but it seems the individuals who can help most are, ranked in order of immediate importance, are:

Kirk
Luol & Ben
the other players
Paxson
Skiles

And yet Skiles is an obvious target, b/c tinkering with the line-up offers the illusion of more control. Certainly more control than what we want to do, which is vigorously shake each of the core by the shoulders yelling, "What's wrong with you? Snap out of it man!!"

by T Maple on Dec 5, 2007 4:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

my thinking is

keeping Skiles will have similar impact on the suckitude, and it's independent of firing Skiles or not that Kirk/Luol/Ben play better.

I agree that it's easier to blame the coach and that's why he's first to go. But you can blame the players AND the coach. Skiles shouldn't be absolved because his players are also bad.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 4:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs