We first need a chance to find out if we're wrong
It's getting to the point where it's tough to come up with reasons not to fire Scott Skiles. This team is just abysmal to watch, and especially listen to, when hearing about how they're getting better while scoring 78 points in consecutive games to the Knicks and Raptors. The freaking Knicks! A team that can't play any defense and is always looking for an excuse to roll over and die each game.
This start is beyond any likely scenario going into the season. It will mean braying and gnashing over opportunities lost (especially the made-up kind, like being able to get Garnett). But unless you predicted that Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Thomas and Sefolosha would all regress, I can't see how clamoring for a major shake-up in the summer would've made enough of a difference now.
Because the sad thing is that this team is so far from their norms it's nearly impossible to find out if they'll be worth keeping long-term, which was a goal coming into this season. Granted, if they stay this bad then then we did find out, but I still don't see that happening.
So Pax assembled this current mess, but he also assembled a very good young team last year that should be improving. So to me he's in the clear for now. Right now his major misfire is the Ben Wallace signing, but there's still time to salvage that.
But Skiles? He's not the main problem, but I don't doubt that Skiles' lineup shenanigans made things worse. The fact that at game 11 he's circled back at the original starting lineup means the early change was mostly arbitrary and pointless in the first place. Not to mention going from starting Adrian Griffin go DNPing him in a week.
Yes, Skiles' teams improve, but this start is beyond repair to become a 'successful' season anyway. A made-up rule is to use 20 games as a good indicator, and even if they win 8 straight they'd be .500 after 20 games, which is a failure. And just because Skiles' teams have started with bad records before doesn't mean they have any special ability to get out of bad records (usually it's a cupcake schedule, which won't be the case this December like the last). And when they do play better, what's 'turning it around'? 44 wins and have Skiles blow at least one playoff game by playing his veterans too much? Getting back to how they have been isn't good enough.
I'm more just wanting Pax to make a statement that this hasn't worked, and lets try something different. Fire Skiles now (or more likely if they lose Tuesday against a not-terrible Atlanta team, so Pax will have until Saturday to make a change, and give the new coach a honeymoon game against Charlotte), get in an assistant to at least play different rotations and give the team a new voice, and then between now and February there's plenty of info to glean and then deals to potentially make. This franchise is still in a good position with a lot of young talent. Lets not waste it by letting Skiles 'figure things out'.
No, Skiles' replacement won't make the Bulls shoot better, but Skiles won't either. So really what's the difference? Skiles is a good coach: I don't even mind his media mindgames with his players, and actually find his comments refreshing, honest, and funny. But while I don't care about his words, I do care about his actions, namely playing time. In that regard he hasn't seemed to have progressed with his talent, and while I still think he's quality, he's replaceable.
Replaceable like any coach. It happens when teams are this far below expectations. Do that first, and players come next. The players are more to blame, and it's not quite fair, sure, but it's not as if there's a zero-sum blame equation, and so just because the players are bad doesn't mean that Skiles isn't also bad. And it's easier to let him go first.
0 recs |
148 comments
Comments
I keep thinking to myself
I think of how many intern coaches make the season actually better. Would that symbolize giving up on the season?
I also think of whether Paxson would rather make a trade first to see how Skiles would handle whatever new player the Bulls were to get. Maybe he figures he owes it to Skiles to give him that go to guy needed to win.
by Option27 on Nov 25, 2007 11:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I suppose
But it is good to know that Nocioni is playing pretty well, and is eligible to be dealt 12/15. Between that and expiring contracts it's conceiveable that Pax gets someone good enough to transcend Skiles' rotation issues.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 25, 2007 11:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But that's the thing
Obviously, there are a certain amout of players (superstars) out there that want to come and play for Chicago. That being said, they know playing in Chicago means being coached by Skiles.
Who's to say the attraction to Chicago will still be there once Skiles is replaced. You may say this is irrelevant but it's not because as much as we all regret the Wallace signing today, I believe Wallace also factored in being coached by a defensive minded coach and a man a lot of people respect around the league like Skiles.
by Option27 on Nov 25, 2007 11:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Eh?
I like the idea of the coaching change now. It would give the Bulls a chance to possibly hire someone mid-season (oh, the trouble Tyrus will have then!), but they'll at least be among the first to be able to go after one immediately after the season.
As I've said before, I'm just ready for a different offensive philosophy. Hinrich, Wallace, Smith and Nocioni are the only current "important" players that they need to stick with to win NOW. Smith doesn't matter, Wallace is irrelevant in offense (and will be gone in the next two years anyway), Nocioni will chuck it no matter what and Hinrich, while showing deficiencies this year, seems smart enough and capable enough to be able to adapt (and who knows how much longer he'll be around anyway).
I feel comfortable in stating that I don't think there are but a select few, if any, coaches out there that could have done more than slightly better with this team over the past four years. However, loyalty doesn't matter when you're trying to win.
They've replaced the me-first attitude with a team-oriented one that tries really hard and plays defense first (Paxson has done that as much as Skiles, though, I believe). Those players will still have that.
Who knows how much difference a coach change would make? As a fan who thinks a stagnation has occurred, though, a change would at least be renewed hope and further optimism. They can't be worse, and a chance at being better makes it the smart move.
The only player change I want to see is a backcourt change. Changing either Gordon or Hinrich (plus contracts) for a better player is the only obvious thing to me. The other guys are too young to give up on quite yet.
With my all-seeing pessimistic fan perspective, I see a coaching change during the season at about 30%, though. That sucks for me.
by tyger1147 on Nov 26, 2007 12:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Talk about jumping the gun...
Chicago fans need to hold there breath for a weak or so because if we go 2 of 3 at home and play the mavs hard, i think it will signal the rebound the team has been waiting for. If not, then we can talk NBA draft, trades, and skiles's head on a stick.
by T MaK on Nov 26, 2007 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They run a terrible offensive scheme
by RogersPark Kris on Nov 25, 2007 11:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
fire skiles now!
by fireskiles on Nov 26, 2007 12:10 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Don't agree
I say keep Skiles, and this "core" of this team for the year. Too many people are gung-ho with firings. If the Bulls haven't significantly improved when it matters (in the playoffs), then let the fire sale begin.
by NittanyBull on Nov 26, 2007 12:30 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately, ...
It does NOT look like they can reverse this any time soon.
by Diabolo on Nov 26, 2007 2:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How many games
by Blacknight23 on Nov 26, 2007 8:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
another reason to make a quick
The way it's looking, signs seem to point to Noce being the Bulls most tradable asset. I would love to be able to use him to somehow pry Calderon away from the Raptors. Also, the next (first?) good game Hinrich has I'd be looking to move him, regardless of who's the coach. The Bulls need a point guard who is a point guard. The only reason Hinrich ever gets credited with an assist is that the next touch in line happens to hit his jump shot.
So those are the players I'd try to move first--Noce because he's playing well and has some present value, and Hinrich because he just plain sucks.
by alec on Nov 26, 2007 9:07 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
"the only reason...
Uhhh okkayyy...not that I'm defending Hinrich, but isn't that the way most assists happen??
by ScottieCartwright on Nov 26, 2007 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and everytime hinrich gets the ball to wallace
by bullshooter on Nov 26, 2007 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Scottie, what I'm trying to say here,
by alec on Nov 26, 2007 10:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ah ok
I was always taught, and have always heard the following: "don't pass to make a pass, pass to make a PLAY". As corny as that sounds, it's true.
I've never thought that Kirk was/is the ideal PG. I don't think he or the Bulls have thought that either. But for some reason, his deficiencies at the position are showing way more than ever this season.
But it's the whole team though. I feel like the passes everyone makes are just blind, no-direction-in-mind kinds of passes. Not enough do you see setup passes, where you can tell one teammate is setting up another.
by ScottieCartwright on Nov 26, 2007 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the real problem
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 10:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I remember when people argued on here . . ,
by Big D on Nov 26, 2007 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ahem...
by bullshooter on Nov 26, 2007 11:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
by ScottieCartwright on Nov 26, 2007 2:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was being facetious
Hinrich is more around top ten at his position, he's not as good as those guys. From what I read here, when people say 'real' or 'pure' point guard, they really mean 'I wish our PG was an MVP candidate'. Hinrich's not, and if you think that this team has to have an elite PG to win then it's a tall order.
Assuming he gets back to his normal level I don't see Hinrich as part of the problem. But until he does, yes it's a big reason this team sucks.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 2:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I just wish for the latter
I know he's not as bas as he is currently playing, but he'll never be as good as Nash or Paul either...but he can be decent enough for the team to take the East.
And you're right, as much as I hate to say it and admit it, as Kirk goes, the team usually goes. Him playing so bad is a big reason they suck right now...(sigh)
by ScottieCartwright on Nov 26, 2007 2:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
meant to say
by ScottieCartwright on Nov 26, 2007 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But Matt, name a starting point guard
http://www.insidehoops.com/depth-pacific.shtml
This puts Hinrich in the bottom 5 at his position. Not the top 10.
by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on whether you are talking about
by wjb1492 on Nov 27, 2007 6:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Worthless moves
by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 9:15 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
did you see taht he was
by alec on Nov 26, 2007 9:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I like the honeymoon game
by hscs on Nov 26, 2007 9:26 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
How much of this blame falls on Paxson...
Certainly, this is a business, and it is the man's job to take care of player personnel moves in order to make the team better. But, as I wrote at Taking it to the Rack in the season's first week, this is a young roster with just two rotation regulars (Smith and Wallace) above the age of 27. Most of the young core has never played for another NBA team (Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Duhon, Nocioni, Thomas, Sefolosha). While they may be big boys in big business, they aren't grizzled veterans, and it is certainly easy to see how the constant rumors swirling over several of them could have been a major distraction at season's start that led to a lot of tentative play. Once you fall into that rut, it can be hard to get out of.
While Pax's job is to make the team better, he had what certainly appeared (and still appears) to be a very solid young core that looked like it was only going to improve with time. In the eyes of many, he didn't NEED to bring in the likes of a Bryant, but once he officially went after him (which he did publicly enough), he likely needed to make a move of some sort simply to calm the nerves of his players, who in some regards may still be waiting for that proverbial other shoe to drop. He can say all he wants to that trade talks are over, but the fact is that it's a company line that likely won't be believed until February and then likely revisited again in the summer.
I wondered in the initial column whether or not once the Kobe talks broke down, Pax should have looked to make a small, largely inconsequential move just to make the "There, I made my move, now I'm done" gesture to his players and coach. Perhaps it would have provided a bit more security for them and allowed them to go out and just play the game at ease.
With all that in mind, it seems to me that Matt's suggestion to fire Skiles makes more sense than ever. It would in effect be that "shake things up" move that would allow the players to loosen up -- at least for a time -- as they had their shot to once again prove their worth as a unit under a new coach. It makes sense right now because there is still ample time to salvage this season, and it makes sense right now because if my theory about the psyches of the players has any merit to it, this type of move may help correct it without having to make any sort of trivial personnel move simply for the sake of making a move.
Perhaps I'm reading much too far into the issue of what Paxson's negotiating with the Lakers (and his failure to lock up Deng and Gordon) long term did to this team to start the season. But I figure it's worth a thought. I'd be curious to hear some thoughts on this.
-sw
by Steve Weinman on Nov 26, 2007 9:28 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
And I'm an idiot
I would still further expound it to say that ultimately, this theory only makes the firing of Skiles a more viable idea. Whether or not it's fair for Skiles to be the only fall guy for a problem that may be rooted in a fault of Paxson's -- who I believe did need to pull the trigger after the Kobe talks got as close as they did -- is up for debate, but that's the game (and the business) for you.
-sw
by Steve Weinman on Nov 26, 2007 9:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Steve
by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Firing Skiles
must be resolved before this team is ready for its preseason hype.
1) Hinrich, the leader, and the total guard play is unacceptable.
They are too small, and can't score, dish effectively, slash or finish at the basket.
The court leadership and awareness is very low, and its bad when Duhon is the best PG and Gardner looks
good. Thabo is probably on the "bust" radar.
OnCurry is another combination clone of part Hinrich and part Gordon and also too small.
Paxson appears to like similiar players.
2) Wallace, Tyrus and Noah are basically the same type of players, one of theses clones is expendable,
and hopefully for a scorer.
Unfortunately, the above two issues aren't easy fixes, but still a goal and target.
by exult463 on Nov 26, 2007 9:48 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Problem with #2
by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 11:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
On Point 1
2) Wallace doesn't get near enough credit around here for what Observer points out. Even if he doesn't seem his old self (just old?) currently, I say Bulls would still be hard pressed to find someone better to lead the team vs Shaq, Howard, Garnett...Problem being, most of the time he's out there, the opponent isn't that substantial post threat, and everyone notices how it's 4 on 5 on offense. If TT and Noah set the same screens and play on man as well, then they're clones with better offensive (Noah? Not yet) capabilities.
Given the two small guards and the smallish Wallace, it' amazing the defense is as good as it is. And equally so that the offense was okay/"not sick" last year. These are the two major personnel issues for the team, and remain for whoever is coach.
by marionette on Nov 26, 2007 3:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
After the weekend carnage I want some hope
Use the year to better get a feel for what we have or don't have. Let's throw in the towel and go with Noah, TT and Grey. That would guarantee a lottery pick. Maybe we get lucky and pick up Hibbert, Thabeet, etc. and we get lucky again and the pick turns out to be a ligitimate low post threat. This makes us a contender with our present group. We can make a decision after the draft if we have the right coach. Playing Noah, TT and Grey is risky and painful, but it increases the liklihood of a lottery pick and hope. We don't get there with this present group.
by chgobr on Nov 26, 2007 9:53 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Oh yea
by Sambossanova on Nov 26, 2007 3:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not about the mindset.
While I generally agree with you that the Bulls have some talent in their core, the problem is they also have some deficiencies in their core...and the real problem is that all their deficiencies tend to line-up with each other, rather than compensate for each other.
For example, in this Bulls line-up--Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Thomas and Wallace--what stands out at 4 of the 5 positions? Everyone is too small. Only Deng matches up, size-wise, with the players he has to defend.
The Bulls roster, though talented, is completely unbalanced. Other teams in this league are smart enough to figure out ways to exploit opponent's deficiencies. There are a number of things they can do with the roster as presently constituted...but going smaller, which Skiles did by starting Griffin, is not the way.
by alec on Nov 26, 2007 9:56 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'm convinced
I agree that going smaller is a bad idea, but that's mostly because the smaller players aren't just smaller but not as good.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 10:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Last year may be an aberation
by chgobr on Nov 26, 2007 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well then what about the two years before that?
3 years of being #1 or #2 in defensive field goal percentage is no aberration.
The question is (as mentioned in other posts) how the team could have regressed almost to a man in team defense.
Part of it is Ben Wallace showing his age, so that one ankle sprain and he looks like Luke Ridnour on a lot of plays on defense.
Part of it is the uptick in talent assembled by other teams' GM's (such as what Colangelo is building in Toronto, or the influx of high draft picks in Atlanta, or the fact that Milwaukee is healthy this year after being injury-riddled last).
And part of it is poisonous team chemistry that was once golden.
by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It can always get worse
For the entirety of his tenure here, most folks have argued this team was "more than the sum of its parts". Well, isn't that as much on coaching as the current mess?
I'm not arguing Skiles is without flaw, or that he's the right coach in the long run, but I neither see anyone obviously better nor have a lot of confidence in Paxson (who hasn't exactly set the world on fire with his decision-making the last couple of years) to pick the right guy.
It's quite possible that if we fire him the team simply becomes "equal to the sum of its parts" and fairly mediocre.
by Sports2 on Nov 26, 2007 10:08 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
firing Skiles
I've appreciated Skiles the past few seasons not from a defensive standpoint, but from an offensive one. I really dont think theres any other coach in the league that could come up with an offense to get this team of jump shooters to score enough points to give their defense a chance to win it for them. And therefore I don't think firing him will accomplish anything except perhaps an even more painful offense to watch.
Really the problem is personnel. I think at this point we've got to consider making an uneven trade in the other teams favor just to start fresh. Maybe the Grizzlies would take Deng, Hinrich and Noah for Gasol? Sure our team would have less talent but ast this point, I don't see us getting much more than that and this current team is not going to win it all.
by JSlakov on Nov 26, 2007 10:23 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
"would've lost the games anyway"
Like I said just because the talent is also to blame doesn't mean the coach is absolved.
Also I think there's something to be said about the coaching staff failing to developing these guys to not be just jumpshooters too.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe
So fire Skiles sure, but make a trade too, kind of like the Bulls trading Jalen Rose around the same time they fired Cartwright. Getting us a multidimensional scorer and a real point guard would be nice. I wonder if the Grizz would part with Lowry since they have Conley too.
by JSlakov on Nov 26, 2007 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that rose trade
I wouldn't mind a trade, but unless you are rebuilding the only worthwhile player leaving will be your guy Nocioni. I don't think trading the underperforming youth is a good idea at all.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How about
::cough "Gordon" cough::
by Option27 on Nov 26, 2007 2:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well there's some that think he's underpeformed
He's underperformed for 12 games, and 'historically' (to use a Skiles term) is the best offensive player on the team. So, since this team is already an absymal offense, I wouldn't deal him.
and 'undersized'. cripes, can we stop saying that for 24 hours? If he plays well it doesn't matter if he's short.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 2:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dealing Gordon
How about Gordon and Hinrich for Igoudala and Andre Miller? Maybe Billy King can read Zeke's "Notes to be a successful GM" book.
by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not a bad idea
I still don't like the idea of trading Hinrich and Gordon when they're both playing awful. But in reality GMs are likely perceptive enough to know it's only 12 games. (maybe, this is the NBA after all)
I'd be careful with Miller, he's having his worst season and is 31. And he's not a good outside shooter, which is a red flag for a bad decline as he gets older. Iggy can't shoot that well either for that matter. So at least we wouldn't be a jumpshooting team anymore! And we'd be tall!
(I guess it all comes down to how good you think Iguodala will be long-term)
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sixers and Bulls
In the 2004 draft I wanted Chicago to take Igoudala. Deng has turned out to be a good player and I wonder if Igoudala and Deng could play on the floor together and mesh.
by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 3:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well
And I think trading Deng or Gordon for a different type of player isnt really rebuilding.
by JSlakov on Nov 26, 2007 7:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Skiles hasn't helped
by hscs on Nov 26, 2007 10:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Normally, I would disagree with you,
by alec on Nov 26, 2007 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The thing with making a huge trade like that
If there is other info out there I don't have - if Pax is pretty certain Deng or Gordon won't sign here, if it comes out that one guy on the team is killing chemistry, etc. - that changes things, of course. But I hate the idea of a trade based on "Bulls suck, so we need a trade even if they'll still suck afterwards."
by wjb1492 on Nov 26, 2007 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Question is this . . .
by Option27 on Nov 26, 2007 10:29 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
forget about kobe.
by alec on Nov 26, 2007 10:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Since either Deng or BG will probably be gone
by bullshooter on Nov 26, 2007 11:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yea
by Sambossanova on Nov 26, 2007 3:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If the Bulls get to .500 in Jan, the season's fine
Twelve games is too soon for change.
Let's talk at thirty.
by preverbal on Nov 26, 2007 10:53 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Who would we hire?
by haze on Nov 26, 2007 11:02 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
dunno.
But offseason? you're right, a lot of the available guys (VanGundy, Carlisle, Dwayne Casey) aren't known for offense.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The low point of the Post Jordan era
by chgobr on Nov 26, 2007 11:10 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Knicks loss sucked
the list of Bulls problems is long, but they should be better then what they are showing
Wallace - injured to start season, even when healthy he is no longer a force. When undersized like he is he has to rely on superior energey, strength, speed, jumping but those all get worse with age and pounding on body. Chandler needed to leave Bulls but Wallace is no longer piece to push Bulls to championship level, he's just a vet C that hopefully does enough that his lack of offense doesn't hurt too much (probably has not been case every game)
Thomas - for good or bad he needs to play, he can be the difference when he is energized and on his game. Of course he is going to make some mistakes but if he doesn't play Bulls will have no idea what his potential is and he will end up reaching it with another team
Deng - needs to be healthy and on floor. I suspect teams have adjusted to his game and are defending him differently to make it harder for him. I don't think he has ballhandling abilities to really become playmaker in halfcourt offense. Good starter but needs other players to be focus of offense playmaking
Kirk / BenG - Both a mess, need higher % shooting and less TOs. Would help if they could ever get to line like opposing guards do against them. I know the Bulls have won games the last 2 years but it looks like their backcourt has peaked. I don't see how the Bulls will get better SG in draft (as I don't expect them to really do this badly all year) or trades (other then Kobe) and Kirk is signed for awhile so not sure what to do with these two.
Thabo - seems useless and his not getting better really hurts. Against Knicks was not looking to shoot and why isn't he attacking the rim? I was really high on him, I don't understand why he looks so bad
Duhon/Noc/Smith - good bench pieces but not guys a championship team should be relying on
Noah - has energy, could turn out okay, too early to tell
okay, done complaining, overall I'm in shock, I can't explain all this losing, although it does seem Bulls weren't as good as we thought
by NY Chicago Fan on Nov 26, 2007 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You are preaching to the chior
by chgobr on Nov 26, 2007 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You sensed
by marionette on Nov 26, 2007 3:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right, Matt. You're so, so right.
But would Pax actually take your advice? Skiles is the symbol of Pax's new Bulls culture; if you dump Skiles, what does that say about the culture?
Interestingly, the Bucks' new coach, who models himself in part after Skiles, and who's instituting a culture that sounds a lot like the Bulls', is having some real success. But of course he's got Michael Redd to work with--and this seems to be the sad heart of the problem: player by player, position by position, with the possible exception of Deng (who still consistently disappears in the fourth quarter, when he's most needed) and Gordon (who is a ghost this year, and whose skill set is narrow) our talent level is (at best) average. You look around the court in the game's final minutes, and you think: Who can get us a bucket? Who's gonna score? And the answer, over and over, season after season, is: No one.
by Robbo on Nov 26, 2007 11:48 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
uh, who cares?
by hscs on Nov 26, 2007 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
True, true.
I'm probably just over- (or under-) thinking this. Fiddling while Rome burns, etc.
by Robbo on Nov 26, 2007 12:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
hopefully
by hscs on Nov 26, 2007 1:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, you're in fine fettle today.
by alec on Nov 26, 2007 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Turnovers
Duhon passing the ball in bounds DIRECTLY to Marbury is pathetic. Deng driving, elevating, and then passing it right to Anthony Parker is mind boggling. Gordon curling around a screen and cutting into the paint and passing out directly to Jose Calderon is awful.
It's one thing to make a good pass and a defender just hustle to cut off the lane for the steal. I wish that were happening. A jump shooting team must make precision passes. Even despite the fact that we're turning it over badly, we're still getting up more shots than our opponents.
I think our shooting woes could be brought under control if we can cut down on the really awful turnovers. These turnovers are getting converted into easy buckets. Some of them are hoops with harm.
by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 12:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
And that's not counting the times
by alec on Nov 26, 2007 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
However, you cannot secretly resurrect
by alec on Nov 26, 2007 12:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The BG Turnover is universal now
BG's turnovers are no longer as bad because he shares the category with Duhon and Hinrich now.
by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Back in the day, the word was that Cuba
Check out this video of their player, Leonel Marshall, reputed to possess a 50 inch vertical.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoKhEiAHfYs
by alec on Nov 26, 2007 12:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Fire the Coach
1.) Keep Skiles and hope that the players will come out of this in time to get back into the playoffs. Skiles will tinker with the lineup hoping to get things going again. This may work, but the truth is this first 13 games was actually the easy part of the schedule when compared to December's schedule.
2.) Make a trade with either another poor performing team, like Sacramento or Philadelphia, where we send them 3 of our struggling players for three of their struggling players or send a contender a quality player for someone who better fills a need. Unfortunately, teams don't really have low post scorers or quality PGs sitting on their benches. Just remember the Bulls are trading from weakness so they aren't likely to get equal value.
3.) Fire Skiles and hope the new coach or interim coach and new environment, will give the team a fresh start and kick-start them out of their lethargy.
I'm for 3 because it has a couple of benefits. First it creates a new beginning. The new coach will offer all the players but especially Tyrus, Thabo and Noah the proverbial fresh slate. New coach, new substitution patterns. At least at the start everyone will work extra hard to impress the new coach and get playing time.
Second if it doesn't work then we know it wasn't Skiles holding this team back. Paxson will get to see another coach try to get performance from this group and he will be in a better position to evaluate trades after 12/15 when all the new signings join the potential trading pool.
by OldeBull on Nov 26, 2007 1:36 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
do we need a 'quality PG'?
Unless you're saying they could use a stop-gap PG while Hinrich gets his groove back, although unless it'd be another expiring deal I'd rather just have (ugh) Duhon.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
also
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 1:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You have playoff dreamzzz
by chgobr on Nov 26, 2007 2:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
'cause you're a negative nancy
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 3:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
lottery talk is a waste
You could argue the Bulls missed out on "stars" in the draft dispite the many lottery picks (I don't need to point them all out) but any new pick in 2008 is going to take awhile to make impact most likely just like past picks
by NY Chicago Fan on Nov 26, 2007 3:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Playoff dreamz?
by bigballa10 on Nov 26, 2007 10:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
this can be learned in the playoffs
I don't think the talent has peaked, at all.
No draft talk.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 11:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I agree that last year's Hinrich is more than adequate at that position. I was just trying to support my statement that firing the coach is the most sensible of the 3 choices Paxson has before him.
by OldeBull on Nov 26, 2007 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As noted
by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 3:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kirk
When going thru the bad games, Kirk is so mentally out of sync, argues with the refs and complains instead of just playing. He's not leading the role players.
He's a thought ...., other Bulls players are benched and reprimanded publically for not running the floor, playing bad defense, etc. But Kirk is never publically called out and quoted to the newspapers that he will be benched for his inconsistency, being abused offensively by other PG (not just SG), bad play and poor passes. The other players don't want to take the criticism any longer, while the poor playing captain is treated like a King James, regardless. If he is the captain, then he needs to back up (or fulfill) his position also on the court. This type of environment can cause other players to want to leave and lose interests.
Kirk needs a fire lite to is ...
And Duhon is not the fire. Duhon will not help the Bulls or Kirk get back on track. I truly want him to "get back to normal". Yet, it's been so long, I forgot what consistent normal is for Kirk, but I know it's not continued pampering from Paxson and Skiles.
by exult463 on Nov 26, 2007 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I do agree
Although I don't think it was necessary to bench any of them anyway.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 3:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
JamesOn Curry?
by exult463 on Nov 26, 2007 3:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bench
by bigballa10 on Nov 26, 2007 10:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Hinrich has been abyssmal this season. He's among the worst starting PGs in the NBA right now.
by NBA Observer on Nov 27, 2007 4:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You two
a) Skiles favoritism has led to "bad team chemistry".
b) Skiles disciplinary ways has led to tentative play on court.
If true, then perhaps Skiles needs to go. But who replaces him, and what issues may develop then? All coaches show some favoritism, I'm sure. And most of these players have been here for years of the "discipline"; they should be accustomed by now.
by marionette on Nov 27, 2007 11:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I always had a feeling my problem
by chgobr on Nov 26, 2007 3:07 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
PAtience is a virtue
What frustrates me is that all of the players on the bulls, who have shown tremendous potential in their first year or two have not improved on their weakness. If the bulls are such a hard working team how is it that they still have the same weaknesses they did two or three years ago. Hinrich's stupid fouls, BG's turnovers, none of the bigs can shoot and Thabo has no arc on his shot. Is Skiles to blame for this or does it have to do more with other personnel on the staff. Look at other young players like Kaman, martin, and even gay...they have all improved remarkably from year to year. Deng, Thomas,Thabo, even gordon and hinrich were supposed to elevate their games to a whole new level. As for Skiles, aside from the lineup bs, he has milked the team for all its got at this point. The only reason i would fire him is because of his bad reputation with handling superstar players (if this perception is actually true). Hence, if paxson is going to make a drastic move over the summer (something along the lines of sign and trade) then you might want a different coach.
by Sambossanova on Nov 26, 2007 3:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
It bothers me that Jason Kidd hates Skiles so much
by chgobr on Nov 26, 2007 3:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
But, a player development coach, would take each and every player specifically and assess specific areas of their game where improvement is needed. Then he would discuss this with them and probably help devise a plan, with tutors or outside assistants to help them improve in this area. He, the coach, might not be an expect, but he should know where to direct them too.
Ok, Thabo should not still be shooting line drives that hit the front of the rim. Ben Gordon should have made some improvements.
Even Riley, Phil Jackson help Shaq to find real free throw mentors. It might not have worked, but real effort (real specialist in fundamentals) seem to be employed.
Skiles player development seems to consist of Skiles asking Jim Boylan to help Wallace to learn how to shoot free throws for a couple of weeks. It seems to me the Bulls coaching staff operates in isolation to others.
It seems as if, Skiles speaks that it is really the players responsibility to improve off season, and that's not the coaches duties. This might be questionable, especially with such a young group of players out of college. What do you guys think? Skiles, or tough guy types don't usually like to baby players or baby millionaires.
I do remember Phil Jackson not only did this in basketball terms, but also attempted to help player improve with other interpersonal skills. And he had other qualified coaches primarily teaching the triangle offense. He truely delegated offensive coaching responsibility, which freed up his time for extra player development.
by exult463 on Nov 26, 2007 4:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone's heard the cliche
A coach can't cause a failed team to be great, but can cause a great team to fail.
Not that the Bulls are a great team (just 'cuz we want them to be), but if Skiles abrasiveness has lost the players, and/or he's incapable of the personal growth needed to become a better coach, I figure Paxson will know it, and then he'll be a goner.
by marionette on Nov 26, 2007 3:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Skiles needs to go...
The real reason Skiles needs to go is to give the players a chance to breathe again, and to realize good trade value down the road. Hopefully a change will help them relax a little and play closer to their potential - I think at least 3-4 are very good players (Deng, Tyrus, Ben W..and maybe Noah some day, with Ben G being a good bench threat), and hopefully this will help us realize some good value in a trade.
by bullsfaninbigapple on Nov 26, 2007 6:41 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
no fire or passion either.
um...maybe I'm just more hesitant to project the career paths of 22-24 year old players, but I can't make that determination yet.
Pax likes them enough to offer them $50m extensions, but not enough to not entertain trade talks. I guess I'm in the same boat.
This is why the start sucks so much: If they played like normal, a year older, and with bigger contributions from the first and second-year players, and still got creamed by Detroit in the playoffs...I'd start to believe in this predetermined ceiling. Right now I can't make any judgements on them because they can't be this bad.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 9:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I know Matt don't like draft talk
The Bulls first round pick plus a player or two like Tyrus or Noah for the chance to pick Kevin Love. The guy is a beast inside.
by Option27 on Nov 27, 2007 9:31 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
shit
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2007 9:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
prediction
by hscs on Nov 27, 2007 9:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and somehow Channing Frye will be involved
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2007 10:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
he's a 'true' point guard, isn't he?
by hscs on Nov 27, 2007 10:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We'll probably also try
by majoyenrac on Nov 27, 2007 12:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's too early to know who the top talent in the
I mean, it's not like two years ago, when LaMarcus Aldridge was already established as the number one pick the first week of the college season....
by alec on Nov 27, 2007 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Love has pretty much established himself
by Option27 on Nov 27, 2007 10:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I pretty much established
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2007 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
dissenting voice here
Sure there are counterarguments to this, and of course I am not in the locker room and cannot get in their heads. It's just a theory that cannot be proven. But, this is why it does not bother me to see the rotation things with Skiles that seem to be derided so much on this site. Especially inserting the derisively labeled as "gritty" "hustly" Nocioni and Adrian. The young guys are simply not acting like veterans and/or professionals. The onus of that falls on Paxson and the players themselves, not Skiles.
That and $2.00 gets me a ride on the CTA.
by GWKD on Nov 27, 2007 11:24 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
who has the lack of appreciation
And what is Skiles' job if not to at least get them to 'act like professionals'?
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2007 11:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Act like Prof.
Hinrich turns over the ball in the first play, yank!!!
Ben Gordon trips on the court, YANK!!!
Luol Deng tries doesnt pass the ball to open guys, YANK!!!
Nocioni takes a bad shot, YANK!!!
Wallace doesnt Jump, YANK!!!!
hell probably be hated alot more on the team, but in this business the only way you can make alot of money is if you are on the court, especially for deng and gordon, this should be the very thing that gets them playing well. Hinrich has to get back to the fundamentals that made him famous, and hitting open shots and not turning the ball over should be on the top of his things to relearn, yanking him when he does one of those things might just get him back on track.
Wallace is the only iffy one to yank, due to the power of the media he has.
by piccolomair on Nov 27, 2007 12:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I hear what you're saying, Matt, but
The first is a no-brainer: Kirk. Put that guy on paid leave or something.
The second, and this really pisses me off, is Thabo. How has he regressed so much? At least Kirk actually did some things in the league before taking his on-the-court vacation. "Basketball chose him" to what, have a nice hairdo while he shoots line drives off the back iron? And not to dredge up ghosts of posters past, but that silly string incident makes me question whether his head is on straight. Isn't that what we were supposed to get with Paxiles, good, character guys? Instead we have the Swiss Miss of Parlor Tricks.
So yes, firing the coach is the way things go, but damn, someone please shake the foundations of Kirk and Thabo while we're at it.
by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 12:45 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I think getting their coach fired
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2007 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It might be a reward to some of them
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3130003&name=broussard_chris
by Big D on Nov 27, 2007 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's insider
On Sport Nite last night they interviewed BG and they asked him about what is going on with the team and he said he wasn't going to point fingers at anyone they just need to play as a team. Then why don't they? Maybe it is Skiles.
by sue369 on Nov 27, 2007 4:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
posting links is fine
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2007 4:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
could someone post the juicy stuff
by bullshooter on Nov 28, 2007 4:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
In a nutshell...
He doesn't cite any specific Bull doing this, nor does he mention the specific opposing player(s) who said all this. In fact, he doesn't really offer concrete evidence, just what sounds like gossip. And in the comments sections some fans called Broussard on that.
It'd concern me if this were true. If any Bull hinted that to an opposing player, I'd guess it was Big Ben (maybe after his complaints about a recent 4th quarter benching), and Broussard's source Chauncy? But it doesn't even say the opposing player heard this from a Bull; it could simply be the opposing player(s) speculated on the situation (Jason Kidd?).
This would be a good one to e-mail Sam Smith about.
by T Maple on Nov 28, 2007 5:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thabo's play
The only problem was the Swiss team was playing in the B league trying to qualify to move up to the A league in Europe. Deng played in the same B league for England. England qualified to move up to the A league. Switzerland did not.
by NBA Observer on Nov 27, 2007 4:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a reward,
by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 2:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
not if they're the 'mentally weak' peeps
Either way its an indication to them that the organization isn't happy with the 'slow start'.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2007 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wrong thread
Chad Ford's free agent take for next year...
His take on Lu:
His take on Ben:
The chances of him recouping that money next year seem almost impossible ... and the rejection of the deal sets him up as the Bulls' best trade bait this February.
Of all the niches that these players fit, there isn't a huge market for undersized 2-guards with streaky jump shots. Gordon may be the best candidate to take the Bulls' one-year tender offer next year.
I personally think he's a little too hard on BG, but that's just me...
by ScottieCartwright on Nov 27, 2007 2:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
this is a pet peave
Jump shots are missed half the time even if you're incredible at it. So no matter who's shooting, it's a 'streaky' shot. Unless you're a bad shooter, which Gordon isn't (this year notwithstanding).
You can say a player's streaky because he relies on jump shots, but I don't believe in such a thing as a 'streak shooter'. Poppycock!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2007 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can see labeling him a streaky scorer
by upther on Nov 27, 2007 3:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's really interesting that you say he's
Because I find his statements to be nothing short of accurate. And especially with a description of marketplace conditions, Ford's story seems like just a good assessment. So it's strange that you feel this to be somehow harsh.
by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 2:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yes, people not agreeing with you
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2007 3:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well no, I'm just curious--
by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 3:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
harsh
Let me know if you disagree with anything else that I ever post and I'll be sure to clear it up promptly sir...
by ScottieCartwright on Nov 27, 2007 3:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Aye Aye, Scottie
But as hashed through repeatedly on here and elsewhere, he has not delivered. We have yet to determine how much of his failure is due to the breakdown of the team around him, and how much is due to his own shortcomings (ok, it's a pun, there's your key opportunity to slam me).
So at least as of now, there's definitely an argument to be made that he's not what he's cracked up to be, and Ford probably wasn't as critical as he could have been.
I agree that maybe "mind-boggling" wasn't the right phrase, since no one predicted a Bulls collapse of this magnitude, and it would have been somewhat understandable for BG to extrapolate past success into future success. But BG took that gamble and turned down one bird in the hand because he was eyeing the two in the bush.
The stream of criticism of BG and the Bulls in general will keep coming, and rightfully so, until they stop the crappy playing. So I'm really sorry, but anyone who wants to argue that BG's not undersized or doesn't have long draughts or is worth more and not less, then yes, I believe that merits a contrary response.
by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 4:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
a 'streak shooter'
by hscs on Nov 27, 2007 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong again
An 'explosive scorer' is a player who not only can all of a sudden heat up and drain shots, but can also drive to the hoop and score just as effectively.
FWIW.
by Bluelou on Nov 27, 2007 4:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
did you break out
by hscs on Nov 27, 2007 4:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
fwiw
Too little use to not just post the whole thing. I always forget FWIW.
by NBA Observer on Nov 27, 2007 4:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't decode internet acronyms
Tell you what - you refrain from using stats, and I'll refrain from using acronyms.
BTW - for the acronym challenged, straight off an internet Acronym server:
"What's an Acronym?
An acronym is a kind of abbreviation. The word comes from Greek, meaning heads of names. Acronyms are usually made from the capitalised initials of the words it represents...."
by Bluelou on Nov 27, 2007 7:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Chad must have forgot...
by tyger1147 on Nov 27, 2007 6:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I know everyone was breathlessly waiting
by bullshooter on Nov 28, 2007 4:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As if we needed another prognosticator
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7490502
Seems pretty reasonable, except that like a lot of other pundits out there he seems to think Pau Gasol is some low-hanging fruit that any old monkey could pluck. And Memphis' reason for giving up on Gasol would be... ?
by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 2:55 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
He's a confused man.
by sue369 on Nov 27, 2007 3:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How do we fleece Memphis of Conley
Memphis has Kyle Lowery already. I thought he was their future pg. But then Atlanta passed on Conley for yet another power forward.
by NBA Observer on Nov 27, 2007 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No credibility
The Bulls didn't advance twice.
Mike Kahn's a moron.
by preverbal on Nov 27, 2007 4:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
did you see Mariotti's story
by alec on Nov 27, 2007 5:23 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

by 











