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It's getting to the point where it's tough to come up with reasons not to fire Scott Skiles. This team is just abysmal to watch, and especially listen to, when hearing about how they're getting better while scoring 78 points in consecutive games to the Knicks and Raptors. The freaking Knicks! A team that can't play any defense and is always looking for an excuse to roll over and die each game.

This start is beyond any likely scenario going into the season. It will mean braying and gnashing over opportunities lost (especially the made-up kind, like being able to get Garnett). But unless you predicted that Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Thomas and Sefolosha would all regress, I can't see how clamoring for a major shake-up in the summer would've made enough of a difference now.

Because the sad thing is that this team is so far from their norms it's nearly impossible to find out if they'll be worth keeping long-term, which was a goal coming into this season. Granted, if they stay this bad then then we did find out, but I still don't see that happening.

So Pax assembled this current mess, but he also assembled a very good young team last year that should be improving. So to me he's in the clear for now. Right now his major misfire is the Ben Wallace signing, but there's still time to salvage that.

But Skiles? He's not the main problem, but I don't doubt that Skiles' lineup shenanigans made things worse. The fact that at game 11 he's circled back at the original starting lineup means the early change was mostly arbitrary and pointless in the first place. Not to mention going from starting Adrian Griffin go DNPing him in a week.

Yes, Skiles' teams improve, but this start is beyond repair to become a 'successful' season anyway. A made-up rule is to use 20 games as a good indicator, and even if they win 8 straight they'd be .500 after 20 games, which is a failure. And just because Skiles' teams have started with bad records before doesn't mean they have any special ability to get out of bad records (usually it's a cupcake schedule, which won't be the case this December like the last). And when they do play better, what's 'turning it around'? 44 wins and have Skiles blow at least one playoff game by playing his veterans too much? Getting back to how they have been isn't good enough.

I'm more just wanting Pax to make a statement that this hasn't worked, and lets try something different. Fire Skiles now (or more likely if they lose Tuesday against a not-terrible Atlanta team, so Pax will have until Saturday to make a change, and give the new coach a honeymoon game against Charlotte), get in an assistant to at least play different rotations and give the team a new voice, and then between now and February there's plenty of info to glean and then deals to potentially make. This franchise is still in a good position with a lot of young talent. Lets not waste it by letting Skiles 'figure things out'.

No, Skiles' replacement won't make the Bulls shoot better, but Skiles won't either. So really what's the difference? Skiles is a good coach: I don't even mind his media mindgames with his players, and actually find his comments refreshing, honest, and funny. But while I don't care about his words, I do care about his actions, namely playing time. In that regard he hasn't seemed to have progressed with his talent, and while I still think he's quality, he's replaceable.

Replaceable like any coach. It happens when teams are this far below expectations. Do that first, and players come next. The players are more to blame, and it's not quite fair, sure, but it's not as if there's a zero-sum blame equation, and so just because the players are bad doesn't mean that Skiles isn't also bad. And it's easier to let him go first.

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I keep thinking to myself
The same exact thoughts you've written about.  Then key questions also keep popping into my head. Like who would be a quick replacement? Boylan?

I think of how many intern coaches make the season actually better. Would that symbolize giving up on the season?

I also think of whether Paxson would rather make a trade first to see how Skiles would handle whatever new player the Bulls were to get. Maybe he figures he owes it to Skiles to give him that go to guy needed to win.

by Option27 on Nov 25, 2007 11:14 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I suppose
but I'd rather make a panic coaching change than a panic trade.

But it is good to know that Nocioni is playing pretty well, and is eligible to be dealt 12/15. Between that and expiring contracts it's conceiveable that Pax gets someone good enough to transcend Skiles' rotation issues.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 25, 2007 11:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But that's the thing
So what if you get in panic coach mode and hire a man the players don't respond to as well as they did with Skiles.

Obviously, there are a certain amout of players (superstars) out there that want to come and play for Chicago. That being said, they know playing in Chicago means being coached by Skiles.

Who's to say the attraction to Chicago will still be there once Skiles is replaced. You may say this is irrelevant but it's not because as much as we all regret the Wallace signing today, I believe Wallace also factored in being coached by a defensive minded coach and a man a lot of people respect around the league like Skiles.

by Option27 on Nov 25, 2007 11:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Eh?
I think Wallace came for the money.

I like the idea of the coaching change now. It would give the Bulls a chance to possibly hire someone mid-season (oh, the trouble Tyrus will have then!), but they'll at least be among the first to be able to go after one immediately after the season.

As I've said before, I'm just ready for a different offensive philosophy. Hinrich, Wallace, Smith and Nocioni are the only current "important" players that they need to stick with to win NOW. Smith doesn't matter, Wallace is irrelevant in offense (and will be gone in the next two years anyway), Nocioni will chuck it no matter what and Hinrich, while showing deficiencies this year, seems smart enough and capable enough to be able to adapt (and who knows how much longer he'll be around anyway).

I feel comfortable in stating that I don't think there are but a select few, if any, coaches out there that could have done more than slightly better with this team over the past four years. However, loyalty doesn't matter when you're trying to win.

They've replaced the me-first attitude with a team-oriented one that tries really hard and plays defense first (Paxson has done that as much as Skiles, though, I believe). Those players will still have that.

Who knows how much difference a coach change would make? As a fan who thinks a stagnation has occurred, though, a change would at least be renewed hope and further optimism. They can't be worse, and a chance at being better makes it the smart move.

The only player change I want to see is a backcourt change. Changing either Gordon or Hinrich (plus contracts) for a better player is the only obvious thing to me. The other guys are too young to give up on quite yet.

With my all-seeing pessimistic fan perspective, I see a coaching change during the season at about 30%, though. That sucks for me.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Nov 26, 2007 12:21 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Talk about jumping the gun...
Skiles has 3 home games coming up and the return of Deng. This is the stetch that proves the team, not the circus roadtrip. While the losses are dishartening and everyone in the universe wants Tyrus Thomas to see more P.T., removing Scott Skiles is not only a knee-jerk reaction, but wouldn't even solve the problem. Giving Tyrus Thomas P.T. isn't going to make the Bulls a better 3 point shooting team (last in the league) nor a better jumpshooting team (last in fg%). And if anyone thinks Tyrus Thomas could play more than 20 minutes with any coach, their dillusional. The way he fouls, i hope hes not the only solution people have.

Chicago fans need to hold there breath for a weak or so because if we go 2 of 3 at home and play the mavs hard, i think it will signal the rebound the team has been waiting for. If not, then we can talk NBA draft, trades, and skiles's head on a stick.

by T MaK on Nov 26, 2007 3:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Come on
Beating the Hawks and Bobcats at home isn't going to signal anything.  All that will prove is that the Bulls aren't one of the worst teams in the league.
The greatest dunk ever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETzpRdC6WS8

by Big D on Nov 26, 2007 9:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

They run a terrible offensive scheme
Dribble, dribble, dribble...forced outside shot, brick. No offensive rebound, as the other team is already streaking down the court for a layup or foul. That has pretty much been the theme of the Bulls in 07. If anything, a coaching change might wake up some of our dead players knowing they are also expendable. Something has to be done,time is running out. I just hope Pax isn't "married" to Skiles in the fact that he will be willing go down with this sinking ship.

by RogersPark Kris on Nov 25, 2007 11:19 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

fire skiles now!
been saying it for a year now

by fireskiles on Nov 26, 2007 12:10 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Don't agree
Even though I agree that he has been erratic for most, if not all, of this season, he shouldn't be fired for only 12 games into 2007-2008. The goal, at least from my comprehension, is to get to the postseason, to hopefully go farther from last year. The East is a lot better than last year, but the bottom half of the teams making it to the playoffs this year still won't be great. They can still make the playoffs. Hell, I'd be surprised if they didnt.

I say keep Skiles, and this "core" of this team for the year. Too many people are gung-ho with firings. If the Bulls haven't significantly improved when it matters (in the playoffs), then let the fire sale begin.

"My jumper's so smooth it will seduce your girlfriend." -1958ChiTown

by NittanyBull on Nov 26, 2007 12:30 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Unfortunately, ...
right now, I'd be very pleasantly surprised if they DID make the playoffs !

It does NOT look like they can reverse this any time soon.

The Game chose him !

by Diabolo on Nov 26, 2007 2:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

How many games
Do you suggest? Skiles is a good coach no doubt but has one major flaw HIS PERSONALITY. IMO coaches get too much credit for wins and blame for losses in all sports. Your teams personality however is a direct result of the headman in charge. After enduring Floyd, Cartwright, etc. Skiles was given way too credit for the bulls success.  In 2004 playoffs he left Gordon the NBAs leading fourth quarter scorer that year on the bench for long streches against the the Wizards. Already missing Curry and Deng that series Skiles lost that series for the bulls. Last year game 5 vs. The pistons no TT/Sefo in the second half when the bulls collasped. Paxson will eventually fire skiles because no players have improved under his leadership/tactics. Hinrich and Gordon actually seems worse than when they entered the league. Deng is a turnover machine. Noah and TT can't get tick. NOCE has the green light. All players  seem tight. All this is directly on Scott "Sarcasm" Skiles.

by Blacknight23 on Nov 26, 2007 8:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

another reason to make a quick
coaching change is that the moratorium on player movement for summer signees ends in two weeks.  Getting a new coach in now would give him a couple weeks to evaluate what he has here to work with and what changes he's like to make.

The way it's looking, signs seem to point to Noce being the Bulls most tradable asset.  I would love to be able to use him to somehow pry Calderon away from the Raptors.  Also, the next (first?) good game Hinrich has I'd be looking to move him, regardless of who's the coach.   The Bulls need a point guard who is a point guard.  The only reason Hinrich ever gets credited with an assist is that the next touch in line happens to hit his jump shot.

So those are the players I'd try to move first--Noce because he's playing well and has some present value, and Hinrich because he just plain sucks.

And worse we may be yet: the worst is not so long as we can say, "This is the worst."

by alec on Nov 26, 2007 9:07 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

"the only reason...
...Hinrich ever gets credited with an assist is that the next touch in line happens to hit his jump shot."

Uhhh okkayyy...not that I'm defending Hinrich, but isn't that the way most assists happen??

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 26, 2007 9:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

and everytime hinrich gets the ball to wallace
under the rim, wallace dribbles it out.  But you have to actually watch the games and notice what is going on to catch that.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 26, 2007 10:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Scottie, what I'm trying to say here,
and perhaps not so well, is that the Bulls' offense consists of throwing the ball around the perimeter until someone chucks up a shot.  Since Hinrich is standing in the middle, the ball tends to go through his hands both clockwise and counter-clockwise.  Hence he gets more assists.  His assists are an accident of court placement, not any particular skill on his part at getting the ball to a well-placed scorer.
And worse we may be yet: the worst is not so long as we can say, "This is the worst."

by alec on Nov 26, 2007 10:11 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ah ok
that makes more sense...and I do agree.  Hinrich's assists do tend to look and feel different than a Chris Paul or Steve Nash assist.

I was always taught, and have always heard the following:  "don't pass to make a pass, pass to make a PLAY".  As corny as that sounds, it's true.

I've never thought that Kirk was/is the ideal PG.  I don't think he or the Bulls have thought that either.  But for some reason, his deficiencies at the position are showing way more than ever this season.

But it's the whole team though.  I feel like the passes everyone makes are just blind, no-direction-in-mind kinds of passes.  Not enough do you see setup passes, where you can tell one teammate is setting up another.

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 26, 2007 10:32 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the real problem
Hinrich isn't as good as Nash or Paul.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 10:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I remember when people argued on here . . ,
That Hinrich was better than Chris Paul.  Damn, Paul sure has made that argument sound ridiculous.

by Big D on Nov 26, 2007 11:19 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ahem...
I believe the argument was that you couldn't say yet that Paul was better, not that Hinrich was better.  There's a difference.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 26, 2007 11:31 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree...
...I was stopping short of saying that though...didn't want the "Captain Kirk Fanclub" members here to come out and get me  :-)

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 26, 2007 2:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I was being facetious
of course Hinrich isn't as good as Nash or Paul. They're top-10 players (let alone PGs) in the entire league.

Hinrich is more around top ten at his position, he's not as good as those guys. From what I read here, when people say 'real' or 'pure' point guard, they really mean 'I wish our PG was an MVP candidate'. Hinrich's not, and if you think that this team has to have an elite PG to win then it's a tall order.

Assuming he gets back to his normal level I don't see Hinrich as part of the problem. But until he does, yes it's a big reason this team sucks.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 2:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I just wish for the latter
...that Kirk would at least start to play like he did last season (his "normal level").  Most of us here who have any real sense knows that he will never be top-10 in PGs or top-10 in the league...I think we just want him to be what he is capable of though...

I know he's not as bas as he is currently playing, but he'll never be as good as Nash or Paul either...but he can be decent enough for the team to take the East.

And you're right, as much as I hate to say it and admit it, as Kirk goes, the team usually goes.  Him playing so bad is a big reason they suck right now...(sigh)

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 26, 2007 2:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

meant to say
"bad", not "bas"

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 26, 2007 2:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But Matt, name a starting point guard
worse than Kirk Hinrich. Rajon Rondo, Mardy Collins, Acie Law, Luke Ridnour are pretty much the only ones if you look out across the NBA Depth Charts.

http://www.insidehoops.com/depth-pacific.shtml

This puts Hinrich in the bottom 5 at his position. Not the top 10.

I thought the Bulls were back... turns out they're just a back end...

by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 12:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Depends on whether you are talking about
his play this season or over his career - I think most people would agree he has not played anywhere near the level the Bulls expect or need him to play, but the 12 game sample from this season isn't exactly a better measure of his abilities than his career to date.  Over the past several years, he has hovered right around the #10 point for PGs.
"I believe. I believe. It's silly, but I believe." (Miracle on 34th Street)

by wjb1492 on Nov 27, 2007 6:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Worthless moves
I don't know if there are enough moves Chicago can make with players or coaches that will do anything to stop Jemario Moon from looking like a hall of famer against the Bulls.

by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 9:15 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

did you see taht he was
getting compared to Dr. J in today's Sun-Times?  OMG!
And worse we may be yet: the worst is not so long as we can say, "This is the worst."

by alec on Nov 26, 2007 9:17 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I like the honeymoon game
Jason Richardson is playing as poorly as he did last season too.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 26, 2007 9:26 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

How much of this blame falls on Paxson...
...for getting involved in the highly publicized trade talks that set the tone for distraction for this team right from the get-go?

Certainly, this is a business, and it is the man's job to take care of player personnel moves in order to make the team better.  But, as I wrote at Taking it to the Rack in the season's first week, this is a young roster with just two rotation regulars (Smith and Wallace) above the age of 27.  Most of the young core has never played for another NBA team (Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Duhon, Nocioni, Thomas, Sefolosha).  While they may be big boys in big business, they aren't grizzled veterans, and it is certainly easy to see how the constant rumors swirling over several of them could have been a major distraction at season's start that led to a lot of tentative play.  Once you fall into that rut, it can be hard to get out of.

While Pax's job is to make the team better, he had what certainly appeared (and still appears) to be a very solid young core that looked like it was only going to improve with time.  In the eyes of many, he didn't NEED to bring in the likes of a Bryant, but once he officially went after him (which he did publicly enough), he likely needed to make a move of some sort simply to calm the nerves of his players, who in some regards may still be waiting for that proverbial other shoe to drop.  He can say all he wants to that trade talks are over, but the fact is that it's a company line that likely won't be believed until February and then likely revisited again in the summer.  

I wondered in the initial column whether or not once the Kobe talks broke down, Pax should have looked to make a small, largely inconsequential move just to make the "There, I made my move, now I'm done" gesture to his players and coach.  Perhaps it would have provided a bit more security for them and allowed them to go out and just play the game at ease.

With all that in mind, it seems to me that Matt's suggestion to fire Skiles makes more sense than ever.  It would in effect be that "shake things up" move that would allow the players to loosen up -- at least for a time -- as they had their shot to once again prove their worth as a unit under a new coach.  It makes sense right now because there is still ample time to salvage this season, and it makes sense right now because if my theory about the psyches of the players has any merit to it, this type of move may help correct it without having to make any sort of trivial personnel move simply for the sake of making a move.

Perhaps I'm reading much too far into the issue of what Paxson's negotiating with the Lakers (and his failure to lock up Deng and Gordon) long term did to this team to start the season.  But I figure it's worth a thought.  I'd be curious to hear some thoughts on this.

-sw

by Steve Weinman on Nov 26, 2007 9:28 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

And I'm an idiot
...for not seeing bullhockey's very similar diary on a very similar point to mine above before I wrote my comment.  Well said on his part.

I would still further expound it to say that ultimately, this theory only makes the firing of Skiles a more viable idea.  Whether or not it's fair for Skiles to be the only fall guy for a problem that may be rooted in a fault of Paxson's -- who I believe did need to pull the trigger after the Kobe talks got as close as they did -- is up for debate, but that's the game (and the business) for you.

-sw

by Steve Weinman on Nov 26, 2007 9:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks, Steve
I thought the Bulls were back... turns out they're just a back end...

by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 12:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Firing Skiles
Is a correct step and should be taken, but still a couple more major issues
must be resolved before this team is ready for its preseason hype.

1) Hinrich, the leader, and the total guard play is unacceptable.
They are too small, and can't score, dish effectively, slash or finish at the basket.
The court leadership and awareness is very low, and its bad when Duhon is the best PG and Gardner looks
good.  Thabo is probably on the "bust" radar.
OnCurry is another combination clone of part Hinrich and part Gordon and also too small.
Paxson appears to like similiar players.
2) Wallace, Tyrus and Noah are basically the same type of players, one of theses clones is expendable,
and hopefully for a scorer.

Unfortunately, the above two issues aren't easy fixes, but still a goal and target.

by exult463 on Nov 26, 2007 9:48 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Problem with #2
No chance that Noah and Thomas are anything like Wallace.  Wallace is the only defender we have in the post that can hold the paint against a big time low post scorer.  Noah and Thomas can get token plays, but they are not going to consistently deny position and the low block feeder pass.  Only Wallace can do this on the roster.

by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 11:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

On Point 1
"Pax appears to like similar players" to a) each other? b) himself, back in the playing days? c) both. It's a rhetorical, multiple guess question, sort of.

2) Wallace doesn't get near enough credit around here for what Observer points out. Even if he doesn't seem his old self (just old?) currently, I say Bulls would still be hard pressed to find someone better to lead the team vs Shaq, Howard, Garnett...Problem being, most of the time he's out there, the opponent isn't that substantial post threat, and everyone notices how it's 4 on 5 on offense. If TT and Noah set the same screens and play on man as well, then they're clones with better offensive (Noah? Not yet) capabilities.

Given the two small guards and the smallish Wallace, it' amazing the defense is as good as it is. And equally so that the offense was okay/"not sick" last year. These are the two major personnel issues for the team, and remain for whoever is coach.

by marionette on Nov 26, 2007 3:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

After the weekend carnage I want some hope
to compete for a championship.  We don't have to win but I want hope we have a shot at it.  Last year was fun because we had a shot at the finals.  Once in the finals you never know what could happen.  Winning a championship requires a great deal of luck and some great players.  All I want is to have some hope.  At best, if we re-group this year and somehow make the playoffs what do we get?  We cannot compete with Boston or Orlando, Phoenix, SA, etc.  At worst we continue in the muck we are in.  Neither option appeals to me.  Firing Skiles feels like a panic move to shake things up.  It may work but doesn't address the real issue which is the composition of the team.

Use the year to better get a feel for what we have or don't have.  Let's throw in the towel and go with Noah, TT and Grey.  That would guarantee a lottery pick.  Maybe we get lucky and pick up Hibbert, Thabeet, etc. and we get lucky again and the pick turns out to be a ligitimate low post threat.  This makes us a contender with our present group.  We can make a decision after the draft if we have the right coach.  Playing Noah, TT and Grey is risky and painful, but it increases the liklihood of a lottery pick and hope.  We don't get there with this present group.

by chgobr on Nov 26, 2007 9:53 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Oh yea
Thabeet would be perfect in the bulls system.  He fouls a lot, is a good shot blocker, cant shoot for shit, cant finish inside, and has no post game.  But he is tall and seems like a good character with potential. While i like Hibbert, the direction the bulls offense will take will decide how well he would fit in.  If the bulls are going to run a lot and try to emulate phoenix, which I think they sometimes do, then he wont fit in much.  The phoenix comparison also has to do with the fact that the bulls used to be able to shoot three point shots.  thats hurt them this year a lot.  Quick three pointers and open three pointers served them well alst year 9I am pretty sure they were top 5 in three point percentage and nocioni, hinrich and gordon all shot above 38 percent or something).

by Sambossanova on Nov 26, 2007 3:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's not about the mindset.
It's about the talent on the court.

While I generally agree with you that the Bulls have some talent in their core, the problem is they also have some deficiencies in their core...and the real problem is that all their deficiencies tend to line-up with each other, rather than compensate for each other.

For example, in this Bulls line-up--Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Thomas and Wallace--what stands out at 4 of the 5 positions?  Everyone is too small.  Only Deng matches up, size-wise, with the players he has to defend.

The Bulls roster, though talented, is completely unbalanced.  Other teams in this league are smart enough to figure out ways to exploit opponent's deficiencies.  There are a number of things they can do with the roster as presently constituted...but going smaller, which Skiles did by starting Griffin, is not the way.

And worse we may be yet: the worst is not so long as we can say, "This is the worst."

by alec on Nov 26, 2007 9:56 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I'm convinced
that the 'being small' makes people feel really sad more than it actually hurts the team. They were the best defense in the league last year while being small. And it wasn't all 6'11" PJ Brown.

I agree that going smaller is a bad idea, but that's mostly because the smaller players aren't just smaller but not as good.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 10:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Last year may be an aberation
where we over-achieved in a very weak East.  We compensated for our size via effort.  This year effort will not work in an improved East.  A genuine threat in the middle with our present group, plus effort, and we have a contender.  The threat in the middle is the missing piece.  Maybe Skiles is the wrong coach but I do not believe there is a right coach if we cannot find the missing piece in the middle.

by chgobr on Nov 26, 2007 10:14 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well then what about the two years before that?
The way I remember it, the Bulls led the league in defensive field goal percentage in 04-05 AND in 05-06. In 06-07 they finished in 2nd place to the Rockets.

3 years of being #1 or #2 in defensive field goal percentage is no aberration.

The question is (as mentioned in other posts) how the team could have regressed almost to a man in team defense.

Part of it is Ben Wallace showing his age, so that one ankle sprain and he looks like Luke Ridnour on a lot of plays on defense.

Part of it is the uptick in talent assembled by other teams' GM's (such as what Colangelo is building in Toronto, or the influx of high draft picks in Atlanta, or the fact that Milwaukee is healthy this year after being injury-riddled last).

And part of it is poisonous team chemistry that was once golden.

I thought the Bulls were back... turns out they're just a back end...

by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 12:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It can always get worse
Just consider that when pining for change just for the sake of change.  Even if that's SOP in the NBA, it very rarely seems successful.

For the entirety of his tenure here, most folks have argued this team was "more than the sum of its parts".  Well, isn't that as much on coaching as the current mess?

I'm not arguing Skiles is without flaw, or that he's the right coach in the long run, but I neither see anyone obviously better nor have a lot of confidence in Paxson (who hasn't exactly set the world on fire with his decision-making the last couple of years) to pick the right guy.

It's quite possible that if we fire him the team simply becomes "equal to the sum of its parts" and fairly mediocre.

by Sports2 on Nov 26, 2007 10:08 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

firing Skiles
I really don't see how this is going to help.  I know you love Tyrus Thomas and want to see him get more minutes, but else than possibly the first game of the season, none of the games have been lost because of a stretch without him on the floor.  The team is playing far too terribly for that.  What are your other gripes?  Surely not Duhon playing more than Sefolosha because even the largest Duhon hater couldnt make a case for that.  Obviously starting Adrian Griffin was insanity but we would have lost those games anyway.

I've appreciated Skiles the past few seasons not from a defensive standpoint, but from an offensive one.  I really dont think theres any other coach in the league that could come up with an offense to get this team of jump shooters to score enough points to give their defense a chance to win it for them.  And therefore I don't think firing him will accomplish anything except perhaps an even more painful offense to watch.

Really the problem is personnel.  I think at this point we've got to consider making an uneven trade in the other teams favor just to start fresh.  Maybe the Grizzlies would take Deng, Hinrich and Noah for Gasol?  Sure our team would have less talent but ast this point, I don't see us getting much more than that and this current team is not going to win it all.

by JSlakov on Nov 26, 2007 10:23 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

"would've lost the games anyway"
so?

Like I said just because the talent is also to blame doesn't mean the coach is absolved.

Also I think there's something to be said about the coaching staff failing to developing these guys to not be just jumpshooters too.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 10:32 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

maybe
I should be more clear.  I think that we probably should fire Skiles.  Its not like this is the Tim Floyd Bulls where no coach on the Earth could coach them.  He has talent to work with.  But just firing Skiles won't solve the problems.  I think if anything we need a total overhaul right now.  Not rebuilding, but hopefully something that could keep us in the playoff hunt this year while also maneuvering towards the future.

So fire Skiles sure, but make a trade too, kind of like the Bulls trading Jalen Rose around the same time they fired Cartwright.  Getting us a multidimensional scorer and a real point guard would be nice.  I wonder if the Grizz would part with Lowry since they have Conley too.

by JSlakov on Nov 26, 2007 1:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

that rose trade
was mostly just to dump the extra year of Rose's salary.

I wouldn't mind a trade, but unless you are rebuilding the only worthwhile player leaving will be your guy Nocioni. I don't think trading the underperforming youth is a good idea at all.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 1:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

How about
trading underperforming/undersized youth?!

::cough "Gordon" cough::

by Option27 on Nov 26, 2007 2:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

well there's some that think he's underpeformed
his whole career. I don't.

He's underperformed for 12 games, and 'historically' (to use a Skiles term) is the best offensive player on the team. So, since this team is already an absymal offense, I wouldn't deal him.

and 'undersized'. cripes, can we stop saying that for 24 hours? If he plays well it doesn't matter if he's short.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 2:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Dealing Gordon
You can deal Gordon so long as you're getting some semblance of a scoring option in return.

How about Gordon and Hinrich for Igoudala and Andre Miller?  Maybe Billy King can read Zeke's "Notes to be a successful GM" book.

by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 2:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not a bad idea
fleecing Billy King, I mean.

I still don't like the idea of trading Hinrich and Gordon when they're both playing awful. But in reality GMs are likely perceptive enough to know it's only 12 games. (maybe, this is the NBA after all)

I'd be careful with Miller, he's having his worst season and is 31. And he's not a good outside shooter, which is a red flag for a bad decline as he gets older. Iggy can't shoot that well either for that matter. So at least we wouldn't be a jumpshooting team anymore! And we'd be tall!

(I guess it all comes down to how good you think Iguodala will be long-term)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 2:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sixers and Bulls
Nearly the same team in my view.  The Gordon/Hinrich for the two Andres would just give Chicago new pieces to move around.  I probably wouldn't keep Miller, but I do think he has a dribble penetration game that spread our offense.  Since Gordon and Hinrich would go, Thabo would become the defensive wizard guard.

In the 2004 draft I wanted Chicago to take Igoudala.  Deng has turned out to be a good player and I wonder if Igoudala and Deng could play on the floor together and mesh.

by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 3:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

well
I think getting Davis had a lot to do with the trade too.  It was a no defense playing chucker for a no nonsense rebounder.  The salaries mattered but werent the only thing.

And I think trading Deng or Gordon for a different type of player isnt really rebuilding.

by JSlakov on Nov 26, 2007 7:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Skiles hasn't helped
the shooters become more complete offensive players. The coach is far less valuable than any player ('cept A-Drain), and really should be the first to go when the team performs well below their normal levels of production.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 26, 2007 10:33 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Normally, I would disagree with you,
simply on principle.  But when every sportswriter with access comes back with quote after quote about the Bulls looking like they're just going through the motions, it really does fall on only one person, the coach.  
And worse we may be yet: the worst is not so long as we can say, "This is the worst."

by alec on Nov 26, 2007 10:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The thing with making a huge trade like that
I'm not to the point where I think the team needs to start over, which is more or less what I would consider trading away multiple starters to be.  While no one on the team is really playing in a way to support an argument against gutting the team, they are also all (with the exception of the rooks, where there is no baseline) generally playing worse (and significantly worse in many cases) than at any time in the past.  Even if we have a team with nothing more than good role players, any one of them could/should benefit from playing with a better/more established/"star"/whatever.  So in my mind it makes sense to avoid the desperation trade, because I think it's a reasonable assumption that the guys that remain behind get back closer to their mean as the season goes on, leaving a team that can compete.  No matter who the Bulls trade for, if the end result is that the new guy plays with a bunch of bench guys, the team most likely won't be competitive this year AND is several pieces away next year as well.

If there is other info out there I don't have - if Pax is pretty certain Deng or Gordon won't sign here, if it comes out that one guy on the team is killing chemistry, etc. - that changes things, of course.  But I hate the idea of a trade based on "Bulls suck, so we need a trade even if they'll still suck afterwards."

"I believe. I believe. It's silly, but I believe." (Miracle on 34th Street)

by wjb1492 on Nov 26, 2007 1:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Question is this . . .
Now that it looks like the Lakers are kind of struggling, would you now include Deng AND Gordon in a deal for Kobe? And keep Noc at the SF spot?

by Option27 on Nov 26, 2007 10:29 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

forget about kobe.
it's not going to happen.  Witht the Bulls in such disarray Kobe would just invoke his no-trade.
And worse we may be yet: the worst is not so long as we can say, "This is the worst."

by alec on Nov 26, 2007 10:37 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Since either Deng or BG will probably be gone
after the season, I'd throw both in and Noc, for salary reasons, and start Thabo at the three.  Thabo wouldn't have to score and could play defense and rebound.  All of a sudden the bulls could run with Tyrus at the 4 and things would be very different.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 26, 2007 11:29 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yea
and then we can become the first team in the NBA since Wilt Chamberlain's teams to have more than half our points scored by one player.  Im sure kobe will be thrilled too!!!!

by Sambossanova on Nov 26, 2007 3:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If the Bulls get to .500 in Jan, the season's fine
The season's still young.
Twelve games is too soon for change.
Let's talk at thirty.
Haiku strike: until the Bulls win, I will comment only in haiku.

by preverbal on Nov 26, 2007 10:53 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Who would we hire?
I think we need an offensive minded coach. But I can't think of anybody to hire?  Ideas?

by haze on Nov 26, 2007 11:02 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

dunno.
I think midseason there isn't enough time (or candidates) to bother, so just promote an assistant.

But offseason? you're right, a lot of the available guys (VanGundy, Carlisle, Dwayne Casey) aren't known for offense.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 11:07 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The low point of the Post Jordan era
for me was the Saturday Knick debacle.  From my vantage point all it took to win the game was heart.  Knowing they were missing shots the Bulls didn't adjust.  That game was a gut check and the Bulls fell short.  The Knicks were so bad they could have folded mid-way through the second period even with Bulls poor shooting if the Bulls really wanted to win.  You win that game even shooting poorly.  There was something in the Bulls that didn't want that game bad enough to fight through poor shooting and still win.  That game was a turning point for me that the small-ball, jump-shooting experiment has failed.  

by chgobr on Nov 26, 2007 11:10 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Knicks loss sucked
I almost thought I should head down to MSG to watch the game, glad I didn't, didn't even watch the 2nd half on my DVR after I accidently found out they lost

the list of Bulls problems is long, but they should be better then what they are showing

Wallace - injured to start season, even when healthy he is no longer a force.  When undersized like he is he has to rely on superior energey, strength, speed, jumping but those all get worse with age and pounding on body.  Chandler needed to leave Bulls but Wallace is no longer piece to push Bulls to championship level, he's just a vet C that hopefully does enough that his lack of offense doesn't hurt too much (probably has not been case every game)

Thomas - for good or bad he needs to play, he can be the difference when he is energized and on his game.  Of course he is going to make some mistakes but if he doesn't play Bulls will have no idea what his potential is and he will end up reaching it with another team

Deng - needs to be healthy and on floor.  I suspect teams have adjusted to his game and are defending him differently to make it harder for him.  I don't think he has ballhandling abilities to really become playmaker in halfcourt offense.  Good starter but needs other players to be focus of offense playmaking

Kirk / BenG - Both a mess, need higher % shooting and less TOs.  Would help if they could ever get to line like opposing guards do against them.  I know the Bulls have won games the last 2 years but it looks like their backcourt has peaked.  I don't see how the Bulls will get better SG in draft (as I don't expect them to really do this badly all year) or trades (other then Kobe) and Kirk is signed for awhile so not sure what to do with these two.

Thabo - seems useless and his not getting better really hurts.  Against Knicks was not looking to shoot and why isn't he attacking the rim?  I was really high on him, I don't understand why he looks so bad

Duhon/Noc/Smith - good bench pieces but not guys a championship team should be relying on

Noah - has energy, could turn out okay, too early to tell

okay, done complaining, overall I'm in shock, I can't explain all this losing, although it does seem Bulls weren't as good as we thought

by NY Chicago Fan on Nov 26, 2007 11:33 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You are preaching to the chior
of stunned, disappointed, angry Bulls fans.  Sometimes I think we care more than the players.  The Knick game pushed me over the edge.  

by chgobr on Nov 26, 2007 11:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You sensed
that the MSG crowd was just waiting for their chance to boo the Knicks. And the Bulls just couldn't deliver that to them.

by marionette on Nov 26, 2007 3:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You're right, Matt. You're so, so right.
And I know this because you're a reasonable guy who doesn't go in for mindless fire-the-coach ranting.

But would Pax actually take your advice? Skiles is the symbol of Pax's new Bulls culture; if you dump Skiles, what does that say about the culture?

Interestingly, the Bucks' new coach, who models himself in part after Skiles, and who's instituting a culture that sounds a lot like the Bulls', is having some real success. But of course he's got Michael Redd to work with--and this seems to be the sad heart of the problem: player by player, position by position, with the possible exception of Deng (who still consistently disappears in the fourth quarter, when he's most needed) and Gordon (who is a ghost this year, and whose skill set is narrow) our talent level is (at best) average. You look around the court in the game's final minutes, and you think: Who can get us a bucket? Who's gonna score? And the answer, over and over, season after season, is: No one.

by Robbo on Nov 26, 2007 11:48 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

uh, who cares?
The 'culture' is a losing one at the moment. I can't believe how some quotes about professionalism and accountability (2 words every coach in the NBA, or anywhere, has said at one time or another) have become so overblown that people really believe they're watching the Bulls win on character alone. The fans aren't at the U.C. to see Skiles keep the out-of-control (and above average!) NBA players in line.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 26, 2007 12:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

True, true.
I should have made clear that I wasn't thinking of 'culture' in terms of bad behavior. I was thinking about the commitment to defense, ball movement on offense, relying on the perimeter guys, that kind of thing. Skiles seems to have run that plan as far as any coach could. And so, if you bring in a different coach, you (presumably?) don't want him to do the exact same stuff, only in a different suit.

I'm probably just over- (or under-) thinking this. Fiddling while Rome burns, etc.

by Robbo on Nov 26, 2007 12:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

hopefully
the defense continues to be one the best in the NBA, but I'm all for any change to the offense if it means scoring more points efficiently. The ball movement leaves a lot to be desired even if there is a lot of it.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 26, 2007 1:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, you're in fine fettle today.
You actually had me laughing out loud with this one.
And worse we may be yet: the worst is not so long as we can say, "This is the worst."

by alec on Nov 26, 2007 12:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Turnovers
At this point in the season, I would hope that Chicago turnovers were the result of really great defense from our opponents.  The reality is, our turnovers are mainly stupid mistakes that most rookies don't even make.

Duhon passing the ball in bounds DIRECTLY to Marbury is pathetic.  Deng driving, elevating, and then passing it right to Anthony Parker is mind boggling.  Gordon curling around a screen and cutting into the paint and passing out directly to Jose Calderon is awful.

It's one thing to make a good pass and a defender just hustle to cut off the lane for the steal.  I wish that were happening.  A jump shooting team must make precision passes.  Even despite the fact that we're turning it over badly, we're still getting up more shots than our opponents.

I think our shooting woes could be brought under control if we can cut down on the really awful turnovers.  These turnovers are getting converted into easy buckets.  Some of them are hoops with harm.

by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 12:00 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

And that's not counting the times
Gordon just drives in and bumbles the ball away.
And worse we may be yet: the worst is not so long as we can say, "This is the worst."

by alec on Nov 26, 2007 12:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

However, you cannot secretly resurrect
your special catagory of BG turnovers....
And worse we may be yet: the worst is not so long as we can say, "This is the worst."

by alec on Nov 26, 2007 12:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The BG Turnover is universal now
It's metamorphosised into the "Chicago Guard Turnover".

BG's turnovers are no longer as bad because he shares the category with Duhon and Hinrich now.

by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 12:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Back in the day, the word was that Cuba
would take its best athletes and sort them first onto the national volleyball team, then filter them on down through the other sports.

Check out this video of their player, Leonel Marshall, reputed to possess a 50 inch vertical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoKhEiAHfYs

And worse we may be yet: the worst is not so long as we can say, "This is the worst."

by alec on Nov 26, 2007 12:38 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Fire the Coach
If you believe that this team is better than their recent performance, you can do one of three things.

1.) Keep Skiles and hope that the players will come out of this in time to get back into the playoffs. Skiles will tinker with the lineup hoping to get things going again. This may work, but the truth is this first 13 games was actually the easy part of the schedule when compared to December's schedule.

2.) Make a trade with either another poor performing team, like Sacramento or Philadelphia, where we send them 3 of our struggling players for three of their struggling players or send a contender a quality player for someone who better fills a need. Unfortunately, teams don't really have low post scorers or quality PGs sitting on their benches. Just remember the Bulls are trading from weakness so they aren't likely to get equal value.

3.) Fire Skiles and hope the new coach or interim coach and new environment, will give the team a fresh start and kick-start them out of their lethargy.

I'm for 3 because it has a couple of benefits. First it creates a new beginning. The new coach will offer all the players but especially Tyrus, Thabo and Noah the proverbial fresh slate. New coach, new substitution patterns. At least at the start everyone will work extra hard to impress the new coach and get playing time.
Second if it doesn't work then we know it wasn't Skiles holding this team back. Paxson will get to see another coach try to get performance from this group and he will be in a better position to evaluate trades after 12/15 when all the new signings join the potential trading pool.

Ye OldeBull

by OldeBull on Nov 26, 2007 1:36 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

do we need a 'quality PG'?
Hinrich will eventually get back to normal, and unless he's traded I don't see any replacement taking his job. And I don't think he'll be traded at his lowest value.

Unless you're saying they could use a stop-gap PG while Hinrich gets his groove back, although unless it'd be another expiring deal I'd rather just have (ugh) Duhon.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 1:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

also
If it's trading bench guys to a contender, I'd only deal with teams in the West. I still have playoff dreamzzz

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 1:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You have playoff dreamzzz
I have Bulls nightmares and lottery dreamzzz

by chgobr on Nov 26, 2007 2:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

lottery talk is a waste
Season is too young and Bulls aren't that bad.  Bulls have had plenty of top draft choices since championship years if the Bulls are back in lotter this year then that hasn't worked.  Isn't there enough lottery picks on the team: Kirk, Deng, BenG, Thomas, Thabo? (can't remember if he counts), Noah.  

You could argue the Bulls missed out on "stars" in the draft dispite the many lottery picks (I don't need to point them all out) but any new pick in 2008 is going to take awhile to make impact most likely just like past picks

by NY Chicago Fan on Nov 26, 2007 3:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Playoff dreamz?
I hate to burst your bubble, as a friend of mine did before the season even started, but the reality is that even if they make the playoffs, they aren't going to make any real noise.  A jump shooting team like this, with nobody to go to when a bucket is really needed, let alone get to the line, will NEVER win a championship.  What good is it for them to finish .500 or barely above, get a seed 5 or lower, and lose in the first round.  The loss to NJ at the end of the year when everybody knew that win gives them the easy track to the ECF, not to mention the blowout loses to Detroit, showed me plenty.  These guys are at best supporting players and we all know it.  At least there are potential star players coming out in the draft.

by bigballa10 on Nov 26, 2007 10:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

this can be learned in the playoffs
and not in November by bigballa guessin'. Or his 'friend'.

I don't think the talent has peaked, at all.

No draft talk.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 11:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
I was addressing the common complaint that the Bulls don't have a low post option and that they lack a true PG.
I agree that last year's Hinrich is more than adequate at that position. I was just trying to support my statement that firing the coach is the most sensible of the 3 choices Paxson has before him.
Ye OldeBull

by OldeBull on Nov 26, 2007 3:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

As noted
Hinrich actually sets up his teammates rather well just like a point guard should do.  However, his assists are attached to made shots.  When his teammates make the shots Hinrich creates for them he gets 12+ a night.  When they miss he gets about 4-7 a night.

by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 3:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Kirk
needs to be benched.  His inconsistency is beyond belief and it's not just this year.  Kirk will have 1 good game and then another 5 to 7 bad games.

When going thru the bad games, Kirk is so mentally out of sync, argues with the refs and complains instead of just playing.  He's not leading the role players.  

He's a thought ...., other Bulls players are benched and reprimanded publically for not running the floor, playing bad defense, etc.  But Kirk is never publically called out and quoted to the newspapers that he will be benched for his inconsistency, being abused offensively by other PG (not just SG), bad play and poor passes.  The other players don't want to take the criticism any longer, while the poor playing captain is treated like a King James, regardless.  If he is the captain, then he needs to back up (or fulfill) his position also on the court.  This type of environment can cause other players to want to leave and lose interests.

Kirk needs a fire lite to is ...
And Duhon is not the fire.  Duhon will not help the Bulls or Kirk get back on track.  I truly want him to "get back to normal".  Yet, it's been so long, I forgot what consistent normal is for Kirk, but I know it's not continued pampering from Paxson and Skiles.
 

by exult463 on Nov 26, 2007 3:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I do agree
that this whole 'accountability minutes' talk only seems to be for Tyrus Thomas, and until this year, Ben Gordon. Hinrich never gets the ol' yank.

Although I don't think it was necessary to bench any of them anyway.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 3:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

JamesOn Curry?
Kirk, might be motivated by some real competition, and On Curry nor Duhon is the answer.  But, I believe Gordon is hard pressed to be a starter in the NBA, regardless if he can average 21 ppg on the Bulls.  And another team would not let Gordon shoot so many air balls.

by exult463 on Nov 26, 2007 3:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

correction ..
are the answer...

by exult463 on Nov 26, 2007 3:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

correction
aren't the answer.

by exult463 on Nov 26, 2007 4:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think
"neither Duhon nor Curry is the answer" may be what you are looking for!

by Jaina on Nov 26, 2007 4:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Bench
The fact that Hinrich has made some of the most boneheaded plays on offense and silly fouls on defense, yet not been benched, is a symptom of why Skiles needs to go.  He has his notorious doghouse which guys can never seem to get out of (Chandler,Tyrus), and he has favorites that can never seem to fall out of favor (Hinrich, Nocioni).  The players know this and I'm sure this type of favoritism has some effect on the team, although how much we may never know.    

by bigballa10 on Nov 26, 2007 10:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
Not benching Hinrich for costly mistakes teaches him nothing.  Skiles, the disciplinarian, will bench everyone else except Wallace and Hinrich for mistakes on the court.

Hinrich has been abyssmal this season.  He's among the worst starting PGs in the NBA right now.

by NBA Observer on Nov 27, 2007 4:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You two
may have hit upon the issues w/ Bulls:

a) Skiles favoritism has led to "bad team chemistry".

b) Skiles disciplinary ways has led to tentative play on court.

If true, then perhaps Skiles needs to go. But who replaces him, and what issues may develop then? All coaches show some favoritism, I'm sure. And most of these players have been here for years of the "discipline"; they should be accustomed by now.

by marionette on Nov 27, 2007 11:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

PAtience is a virtue
up to a certain point.  There seems to be a consensus that Skiles should be fired if this continues.  If the bulls are 4-20 24 games in, its very unlikely skiles will still be here.  Give him ten more games and lets see if they can at least try to work out of this bull'shit.

What frustrates me is that all of the players on the bulls, who have shown tremendous potential in their first year or two have not improved on their weakness. If the bulls are such a hard working team how is it that they still have the same weaknesses they did two or three years ago.  Hinrich's stupid fouls, BG's turnovers, none of the bigs can shoot and Thabo has no arc on his shot.  Is Skiles to blame for this or does it have to do more with other personnel on the staff. Look at other young players like Kaman, martin, and even gay...they have all improved remarkably from year to year.  Deng, Thomas,Thabo, even gordon and hinrich were supposed to elevate their games to a whole new level.  As for Skiles, aside from the lineup bs, he has milked the team for all its got at this point.  The only reason i would fire him is because of his bad reputation with handling superstar players (if this perception is actually true).  Hence, if paxson is going to make a drastic move over the summer (something along the lines of sign and trade) then you might want a different coach.

by Sambossanova on Nov 26, 2007 3:49 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

It bothers me that Jason Kidd hates Skiles so much
If I was an NBA coach and had Jason Kidd was on my team I would do everything to make him happy.  What does Skiles do to piss so many people off?  He obviously did this to Chandler and I wonder who he is doing it to on the present Bulls.  This is not good for developing and improving players.

by chgobr on Nov 26, 2007 3:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Good point
It seems as if Skiles is an X and O coach, running plays in the motion offensive and defense.  Which all seem to be good things.

But, a player development coach, would take each and every player specifically and assess specific areas of their game where improvement is needed.  Then he would discuss this with them and probably help devise a plan, with tutors or outside assistants to help them improve in this area.  He, the coach, might not be an expect, but he should know where to direct them too.  
Ok, Thabo should not still be shooting line drives that hit the front of the rim.  Ben Gordon should have made some improvements.

Even Riley, Phil Jackson help Shaq to find real free throw mentors.  It might not have worked, but real effort (real specialist in fundamentals) seem to be employed.  

Skiles player development seems to consist of Skiles asking Jim Boylan to help Wallace to learn how to shoot free throws for a couple of weeks.  It seems to me the Bulls coaching staff operates in isolation to others.

It seems as if, Skiles speaks that it is really the players responsibility to improve off season, and that's not the coaches duties.  This might be questionable, especially with such a young group of players out of college.  What do you guys think?  Skiles, or tough guy types don't usually like to baby players or baby millionaires.

I do remember Phil Jackson not only did this in basketball terms, but also attempted to help player improve with other interpersonal skills.  And he had other qualified coaches primarily teaching the triangle offense.  He truely delegated offensive coaching responsibility, which freed up his time for extra player development.  

by exult463 on Nov 26, 2007 4:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Everyone's heard the cliche
that the coach gets too much credit in victory, and too much blame in defeat. And while I believe it, for the most part, have you heard this one? Goes something like:

A coach can't cause a failed team to be great, but can cause a great team to fail.

Not that the Bulls are a great team (just 'cuz we want them to be), but if Skiles abrasiveness has lost the players, and/or he's incapable of the personal growth needed to become a better coach, I figure Paxson will know it, and then he'll be a goner.

by marionette on Nov 26, 2007 3:53 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I agree that Skiles needs to go...
..but not for the reasons you stated (i.e. we will find out how good this team truly is). I think we have already had that question answered over the last couple of seasons - we are a marginally above average team that is good for slots 5-8 in the playoffs and one that is going through a bad slump. We rely on roster depth, decent defense, streaky jumpshots and effort (rather than great talent) to win. We lack the experience, killer instinct and game changing superstar(highly correlated with killer instinct) to be a true contender. I think it is painfully obvious now that this team as constructed will never win a championship.

The real reason Skiles needs to go is to give the players a chance to breathe again, and to realize good trade value down the road. Hopefully a change will help them relax a little and play closer to their potential - I think at least 3-4 are very good players (Deng, Tyrus, Ben W..and maybe Noah some day, with Ben G being a good bench threat), and hopefully this will help us realize some good value in a trade.

by bullsfaninbigapple on Nov 26, 2007 6:41 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

no fire or passion either.
or gusto.

um...maybe I'm just more hesitant to project the career paths of 22-24 year old players, but I can't make that determination yet.

Pax likes them enough to offer them $50m extensions, but not enough to not entertain trade talks. I guess I'm in the same boat.

This is why the start sucks so much: If they played like normal, a year older, and with bigger contributions from the first and second-year players, and still got creamed by Detroit in the playoffs...I'd start to believe in this predetermined ceiling. Right now I can't make any judgements on them because they can't be this bad.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 9:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I know Matt don't like draft talk
But it just hit me . . . . .

The Bulls first round pick plus a player or two like Tyrus or Noah for the chance to pick Kevin Love.  The guy is a beast inside.

by Option27 on Nov 27, 2007 9:31 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

shit
tell y'all what. I'll just keep refreshing the draft diary every 7 days. Hopefully we'll get as good of a discussion as last year when Tyler Hansborough was the solution to our low-post needs.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2007 9:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

prediction
the diary's consensus will be trade Thomas for Sene, get Eddy Curry back (magically, of course), tank the season to draft R.O.Y. Hibbert, and sign Antonio Davis.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 27, 2007 9:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

he's a 'true' point guard, isn't he?
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 27, 2007 10:24 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

We'll probably also try
To get Sean May (undersized Center with injury problems)....maybe that's the guy we trade Deng for :).

by majoyenrac on Nov 27, 2007 12:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ha!
I knew that was coming

by Option27 on Nov 27, 2007 9:54 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's too early to know who the top talent in the
draft is going to be, anyway.

I mean, it's not like two years ago, when LaMarcus Aldridge was already established as the number one pick the first week of the college season....

And worse we may be yet: the worst is not so long as we can say, "This is the worst."

by alec on Nov 27, 2007 10:14 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

dissenting voice here
I think it would be a terrible mistake to fire Skiles right now.  In my opinion, Paxson is still paying for his flirtation with Kobe, and its parallel lack of appreciation for his young players, who gave him everything they had for 49 wins last year---only to be left unappreciated with failed contract signings and a near trade for a proto-typical a-hole.  The near Kobe trade (which is still hanging over them until Dec. 15) signals that all of their character attributes that they thought the Bulls were so highly valued were nothing.  That lack of appreciation translates into---not a lack of effort---but fear.  I watched Knicks game the other day and I saw Thabo miss two easy shots and Kirk nearly airball another.  I emphasized "young" earlier because this is something that can happen to a young person.  This has nothing to do with skill or coaching, but lack of character. "Character" which is a maddening concept because it is unquantifiable. Add in injuries to Wallace and Deng and it is a recipe for a disaster.  

Sure there are counterarguments to this, and of course I am not in the locker room and cannot get in their heads.  It's just a theory that cannot be proven.  But, this is why it does not bother me to see the rotation things with Skiles that seem to be derided so much on this site.  Especially inserting the derisively labeled as "gritty" "hustly" Nocioni and Adrian.  The young guys are simply not acting like veterans and/or professionals. The onus of that falls on Paxson and the players themselves, not Skiles.

That and $2.00 gets me a ride on the CTA.    

by GWKD on Nov 27, 2007 11:24 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

who has the lack of appreciation
of young players more than Skiles? If Pax didn't want to use the lottery picks he didn't have to.

And what is Skiles' job if not to at least get them to 'act like professionals'?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2007 11:30 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Act like Prof.
Personally i think skiles was pretty good at this, although as of late it hasnt been the case. I always like skiles' "no nonsense"  bravado. Yanking players left and right. He really should get back to doing that.

Hinrich turns over the ball in the first play, yank!!!
Ben Gordon trips on the court, YANK!!!
Luol Deng tries doesnt pass the ball to open guys, YANK!!!
Nocioni takes a bad shot, YANK!!!
Wallace doesnt Jump, YANK!!!!

hell probably be hated alot more on the team, but in this business the only way you can make alot of money is if you are on the court, especially for deng and gordon, this should be the very thing that gets them playing well. Hinrich has to get back to the fundamentals that made him famous, and hitting open shots and not turning the ball over should be on the top of his things to relearn, yanking him when he does one of those things might just get him back on track.

Wallace is the only iffy one to yank, due to the power of the media he has.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Nov 27, 2007 12:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah I hear what you're saying, Matt, but
there have to be ramifications for the players at least simultaneously. Fine, take it out on Skiles, but two players on that are annoying enough to be benched for someone, anyone, else.

The first is a no-brainer: Kirk. Put that guy on paid leave or something.

The second, and this really pisses me off, is Thabo. How has he regressed so much? At least Kirk actually did some things in the league before taking his on-the-court vacation. "Basketball chose him" to what, have a nice hairdo while he shoots line drives off the back iron? And not to dredge up ghosts of posters past, but that silly string incident makes me question whether his head is on straight. Isn't that what we were supposed to get with Paxiles, good, character guys? Instead we have the Swiss Miss of Parlor Tricks.

So yes, firing the coach is the way things go, but damn, someone please shake the foundations of Kirk and Thabo while we're at it.

I thought the Bulls were back... turns out they're just a back end...

by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 12:45 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

That's insider
reading. I don't know if Matt can get in trouble for having that posted or not.

On Sport Nite last night they interviewed BG and they asked him about what is going on with the team and he said he wasn't going to point fingers at anyone they just need to play as a team. Then why don't they? Maybe it is Skiles.

Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Nov 27, 2007 4:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

posting links is fine
quotes is fine too. Just don't post the whole thing.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2007 4:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

could someone post the juicy stuff
since my insider password isn't working at the moment...
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 28, 2007 4:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

In a nutshell...
Here's a taste, abbreviated so as not to tick off the ESPN gods:
According to opposing players, the Bulls'...[sucking so badly]...is directly related to their dislike of Skiles....Some players have even "thrown out the notion" [quotes mine] that the team has quit on its coach in hopes that it gets him fired.

He doesn't cite any specific Bull doing this, nor does he mention the specific opposing player(s) who said all this. In fact, he doesn't really offer concrete evidence, just what sounds like gossip. And in the comments sections some fans called Broussard on that.

It'd concern me if this were true. If any Bull hinted that to an opposing player, I'd guess it was Big Ben (maybe after his complaints about a recent 4th quarter benching), and Broussard's source Chauncy? But it doesn't even say the opposing player heard this from a Bull; it could simply be the opposing player(s) speculated on the situation (Jason Kidd?).

This would be a good one to e-mail Sam Smith about.

by T Maple on Nov 28, 2007 5:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thabo's play
Thabo had a great offseason.  His time with the Swiss National team was really good.  He scored.  he defended.  He rebounded.  He finished.  He took it to the rim.

The only problem was the Swiss team was playing in the B league trying to qualify to move up to the A league in Europe.  Deng played in the same B league for England.  England qualified to move up to the A league.  Switzerland did not.

by NBA Observer on Nov 27, 2007 4:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's a reward,
not a punishment.
I thought the Bulls were back... turns out they're just a back end...

by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 2:05 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

not if they're the 'mentally weak' peeps
some say. They'll feel sad. For a few minutes, anyway.

Either way its an indication to them that the organization isn't happy with the 'slow start'.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2007 2:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

wrong thread
but oh well.  Just thought I would share this.

Chad Ford's free agent take for next year...

His take on Lu:

Everyone loves Deng's talent, but so do the Bulls. It's hard to see them not matching any offer Deng gets next summer. He declined a $57.5 million extension in October, so if he makes more than that next summer he comes out ahead. Under different market conditions he's a max or near max player. But it will be interesting to see if the budget-conscious Bulls will take advantage of the market conditions and offer him much less.

His take on Ben:

Of all the players who turned down lucrative contract extensions, Gordon's decision is the most mind-boggling. He turned down a five-year, $50 million deal that seemed above market value on a down season.

The chances of him recouping that money next year seem almost impossible ... and the rejection of the deal sets him up as the Bulls' best trade bait this February.

Of all the niches that these players fit, there isn't a huge market for undersized 2-guards with streaky jump shots. Gordon may be the best candidate to take the Bulls' one-year tender offer next year.

I personally think he's a little too hard on BG, but that's just me...

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 27, 2007 2:06 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

this is a pet peave
'streaky' jump shots.

Jump shots are missed half the time even if you're incredible at it. So no matter who's shooting, it's a 'streaky' shot. Unless you're a bad shooter, which Gordon isn't (this year notwithstanding).

You can say a player's streaky because he relies on jump shots, but I don't believe in such a thing as a 'streak shooter'. Poppycock!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2007 2:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I can see labeling him a streaky scorer
But streaky shooter makes little sense to me.  

by upther on Nov 27, 2007 3:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's really interesting that you say he's
being a little too hard on Ben Gordon. Do you mean that he's being unnecessarily negative in terms of his description of what the marketplace will pay Ben? Or are you saying it's unduly harsh to call Ben an "undersized 2-guard with streaky jump shots"?

Because I find his statements to be nothing short of accurate. And especially with a description of marketplace conditions, Ford's story seems like just a good assessment. So it's strange that you feel this to be somehow harsh.

I thought the Bulls were back... turns out they're just a back end...

by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 2:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well no, I'm just curious--
What is it about Ford's statements that is harsh? If someone calls a 6'2" guard undersized, is that harsh? It's not like he insulted him or something.
I thought the Bulls were back... turns out they're just a back end...

by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 3:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

harsh
Just the fact that he called him a "streaky jump shooter"...and also the wording he used ("mind boggling") like Gordon is just some un-deserving chump on a bad team.

Let me know if you disagree with anything else that I ever post and I'll be sure to clear it up promptly sir...

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 27, 2007 3:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Aye Aye, Scottie
Cartwright. Don't get me wrong, I'm not out to offend anyone (pick apart their language in off-handed comments, maybe, but not offend). Ben Gordon's done great so far for a 6'2" (likely shorter) shooting guard. I mean, there are guys who get all star berths and/or max money at that height or shorter, but they're even more the exception than Ben Gordon--people like Allen Iverson, Mark Price, Michael Adams come to mind. I would love to see Ben Gordon mentioned in that company.

But as hashed through repeatedly on here and elsewhere, he has not delivered. We have yet to determine how much of his failure is due to the breakdown of the team around him, and how much is due to his own shortcomings (ok, it's a pun, there's your key opportunity to slam me).

So at least as of now, there's definitely an argument to be made that he's not what he's cracked up to be, and Ford probably wasn't as critical as he could have been.

I agree that maybe "mind-boggling" wasn't the right phrase, since no one predicted a Bulls collapse of this magnitude, and it would have been somewhat understandable for BG to extrapolate past success into future success. But BG took that gamble and turned down one bird in the hand because he was eyeing the two in the bush.

The stream of criticism of BG and the Bulls in general will keep coming, and rightfully so, until they stop the crappy playing. So I'm really sorry, but anyone who wants to argue that BG's not undersized or doesn't have long draughts or is worth more and not less, then yes, I believe that merits a contrary response.

I thought the Bulls were back... turns out they're just a back end...

by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 4:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

a 'streak shooter'
also happens to be the same thing as an 'explosive scorer'.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 27, 2007 3:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wrong again
A 'streak shooter' is just that - a shooter who gets hot and cold.

An 'explosive scorer' is a player who not only can all of a sudden heat up and drain shots, but can also drive to the hoop and score just as effectively.

FWIW.

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Nov 27, 2007 4:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

did you break out
a leather bound copy of Jay Bilas draft transcripts to post that? I can't decode internet acronyms. Please refrain from using them.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 27, 2007 4:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

fwiw
for what it's worth

Too little use to not just post the whole thing.  I always forget FWIW.

by NBA Observer on Nov 27, 2007 4:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I can't decode internet acronyms
No kidding...your moniker is hscs...whadda ya call that?

Tell you what - you refrain from using stats, and I'll refrain from using acronyms.

BTW - for the acronym challenged, straight off an internet Acronym server:

"What's an Acronym?
An acronym is a kind of abbreviation. The word comes from Greek, meaning heads of names. Acronyms are usually made from the capitalised initials of the words it represents...."

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Nov 27, 2007 7:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Chad must have forgot...
...to read the interview where Luol Deng said he only turned down a $50 million offer, not $57.5. One Sam Smith leak, and now he's a greedy fool.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Nov 27, 2007 6:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I know everyone was breathlessly waiting
for me to weigh in, but I don't see how that isn't an pretty objective evaluation.   BG has a bad TO/Ast ratio, and doesn't get many calls when he drives.  For homers like us, it might hurt a little, but it shouldn't be something you haven't heard before.  And that doesn't make it wrong.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 28, 2007 4:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

As if we needed another prognosticator
to weigh in, here's Mike Kahn's take:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7490502

Seems pretty reasonable, except that like a lot of other pundits out there he seems to think Pau Gasol is some low-hanging fruit that any old monkey could pluck. And Memphis' reason for giving up on Gasol would be... ?

I thought the Bulls were back... turns out they're just a back end...

by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 2:55 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

He's a confused man.
He said, "with Hinrich and Gordon turning down contract offers". Must not proof read his stuff.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Nov 27, 2007 3:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

How do we fleece Memphis of Conley
Could we give them Hinrich and Gordon and change for Conley and Gasol?

Memphis has Kyle Lowery already.  I thought he was their future pg.  But then Atlanta passed on Conley for yet another power forward.

by NBA Observer on Nov 27, 2007 4:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No credibility
Hinrich has his deal.
The Bulls didn't advance twice.
Mike Kahn's a moron.
Haiku strike: until the Bulls win, I will comment only in haiku.

by preverbal on Nov 27, 2007 4:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

did you see Mariotti's story
about Skiles spanking Sam Smith?  kinda funny.  http://www.suntimes.com/sports/mariottiweb/668571,jay112707w2.article
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Nov 27, 2007 5:23 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

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