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Bulls-Suns postgame venting thread

It's late, few incites.

I'm looking forward to the game flow in the morning, but after tying the game in the 4th, Skiles made a major misstep in trying to go extra-small (Duh/Hinrich/Gordon/Noc/Deng?), getting destroyed by Marion and Diaw.  

Even at their best it's tough to beat the Suns in their house, so mistakes like that loom large.

As does the great 'spark' experiment:

Nocioni: 41m -14
Thomas: 23m +12

With ideas like these, maybe Skiles should just sit out a few plays.

Overall the team played well and there were enough decent performances to go around, including Deng and Wallace (who wasn't spectacular or anything, but better). And even Nocioni didn't play terrible, he just shouldn't be starting and getting over 40 minutes. Gordon and Hinrich have yet to permanently get their heads out of their asses, so this season's a tough sell until that happens.

This was the toughest game of the trip, so best it's out of the way now. I sure wish these lineup shennigans weren't looming to quell any optimism of a quick turnaround, as I can't help but feel we'll be waiting a few weeks just to undo whatever damage that causes, even after everyone's game returns to normal.

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Good point on the late game lineup change
"(Duh/Hinrich/Gordon/Noc/Deng?), getting destroyed by Marion and Diaw. "

Why would you try up the temp and fall right into Phoenix's hands? If anything, you keep Phoenix in a half court game. The Bulls got 5 fouls on Amare, they should have kept attacking with a normal sized lineup. Would it kill Skiles to try out playing Noah? At least he would know how to play defense and  guard a pick and roll.

by RogersPark Kris on Nov 16, 2007 12:48 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

yeah with amare out
I really felt like at the 8 minute mark in the fourth, when it was tied up, that Skiles should have put in Big Ben instead of Smith and try to lock them down.  He can handle one big with amare out, and I believe that he'd really step it up to make a win.  I like Smith, and I know that there's the offense he brings, but I think Big Ben's presence on the floor would really make things happen.  I mean what happened to last years edict that defense wins games?

I chalk this loss up to Skiles and the coaching staff.  Skiles didn't really impress me with his substitutions at all.

by brianmita on Nov 16, 2007 11:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

God for a while I was starting to see hope!
Well as far as the Suns damn did they get old? They remind me of the Heat. Just a bunch of old guys. That bench is garbage!
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 12:49 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

no prob
they never use their bench.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 12:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Barbosa
Barbosa is their bench.  Diaw is also a bench player now.  This has to be the most expensive bench in the league.

I saw Brian Skinner out there too.  I think he clocked a whopping 2 minutes of play.

by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 2:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Suns
"garbage" bench   35pts

Bull bench            15pts

by marionette on Nov 16, 2007 1:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

and you thought I forgot
since the Bulls lost, one user has to go:

::opens frozen envelope::

no surprise, it's miserabull. First class jerk. He will be missed by few.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 12:50 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

This is the greatest thing...
...an SB Nation blogger has ever done. (okay, not really--I most everything you do here, Matt. And there are other good 'blogs.) It's quality entertainment.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Nov 16, 2007 9:00 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's amazing the drop off in play.
Once Skiles took that line up of Duhon, Hinrich,Deng, Nocioni and Tyrus out the game swung. He took out Tyrus for Joe Smith and bam it felt like a 20 point lead. It was only 6.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 12:51 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm
Incites?  While there is much of late that has proven inciteful, I'm wondering if you were going for "insight" there?

Typos, I know - but that's so freudian I can't help myself.

"They had me do a psychology test and I asked Coach Skiles if that affected his coaching. He laughed and said, `No way.'" (Joakim Noah)

by wjb1492 on Nov 16, 2007 12:53 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

OK, good to know.
"They had me do a psychology test and I asked Coach Skiles if that affected his coaching. He laughed and said, `No way.'" (Joakim Noah)

by wjb1492 on Nov 16, 2007 12:55 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You know what I love is how all our team crumble!
Why can't we have atleast one dominate team? Like a team that when it wins a game you know they are good! Why do all out team cave like this?
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 12:56 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

You've just been spoiled
This is what life in most cities is like - perpetual hope with lots of heartbreak.
"They had me do a psychology test and I asked Coach Skiles if that affected his coaching. He laughed and said, `No way.'" (Joakim Noah)

by wjb1492 on Nov 16, 2007 1:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No the Bears are good every 20 years.
The Cubs always fold. I was really hoping the Bulls would be the Yankees of the NBA. Or not so much the Yankees but the team that always seems to win. Like the Red Wings or some other example!
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 1:08 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

just got back from the game
oh how i wish this is the last of the three guard lineup, and tyrus should be the defensive bengo of the 4th quarter. I also like him coming off the bench to start the game and letting him get adjusted to the flow of the game as they say. To lull matt's noc hate, he did bail us out on several ugly possessions where he drove on, of all people, marion to get layups. although we can also start joe smith, who happened to play like shit tonight, shot wasnt falling and how do you get dominated by boris diaw? although i feel confident that the bulls can have a .500+ circus trip.  

by lampnasty on Nov 16, 2007 1:05 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

You saw it in person
here in PHX? I made the game 2 seasons ago...I think Chandler and Sweetney were on court at the same time at one point! BG made at least 10 in a row in the 2nd half, to my memory. He chased a ball out of bounds nearby, and I took the opportunity to yell out like a homer, "Hey Gordon, you can miss, you know!" (He didn't miss the next one). They lost then too, but it was great anyway! Nothing like seeeing a game in the up close and personal. The lower level was "pretty vacant" that year, which makes it even better in a way for the "neutral" fan.

Marv Albert said there was some noise from Bull fans when they went up 83-81, true?

by marionette on Nov 16, 2007 2:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah we got suns season tickets
but that by no means places me in the shoes of a phx fan. it was around 70 to 30, phoenix to chicago fans. once we tied it at the end of the third, the bulls fans made their presence felt, but I still had the feeling we would lose just not by the hands of the three guard lineup. albiet its nice to see my writing form is still somewhat readable post drunk-bulls-game-syndrome.

by lampnasty on Nov 16, 2007 7:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

A reluctant
season ticket holder? That's different!

Two years ago, I doubt there was one Bulls fan in the $$$ seats. In fact, few Suns fans seemed to care much that night.

by marionette on Nov 17, 2007 2:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I actually think the Lakers game will be worse
than tonight was.

With Kobe being in the middle of all the trade rumors a couple weeks ago, it would be just like him to have something to prove - whatever that is I do not know - but he will likely be on his game Sunday as will the rest of the Lakers and it could end up being flat out ugly.

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Nov 16, 2007 1:11 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I agree I have been watching them play and they
could make it a killing. After he Score 50 on the Bulls he comes out and says I wana be a Laker for life and then I start looking towards the NFL Draft! Watch SA beat Boston in the Finals! Great season guy see ya next year!
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 1:15 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Odom isn't close to right
yet, but Phil plays all the guys and, therefore, gets something from everyone. Skiles and D'Antoni could take a lesson.

Yeah, they've been playing well. DFish helps alot (compared to Smush!). Still think Bulls get one of 2 in LA, though.

by marionette on Nov 16, 2007 1:30 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And 45
is too many mins for Deng. He's expected to have energy to "out work" the other guys.

by marionette on Nov 16, 2007 1:32 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

you never see Deng in the 4th quarter.
55 million dollars!
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 1:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe he felt...
...he wasn't worth that much.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Nov 16, 2007 9:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I watched
the game over again (wot a geek!), and Lu was in the entire time, I think! As "center" he posted Barbosa @ 5:00, but missed. A minute earlier (or later?) he slashed from the corner to get a pass as the clock ran out (another miss). There was a foul drawn in there sometime later (2 made FTs?) too, but hardly any touches to speak of in 4th from he or BG (who was on the bench some I believe).

The "offense" was usually Noc (unfazed!) and Kirk passing it a little between themselves (or just going quickly one on one!) while the other 3 "spaced" the perimeter. So Wallace's absence didn't really help in a way.

Looking at the whole game, Hill usually checked Lu. Bell had the most trouble (that put back to end the half, for example). Barbosa was the only one he didn't score on, which might not mean anything, but might mean putting Lu at the 2 won't be so great. Deng was just easier for Hill and Bell to deal with in the 4th. Either they were more focused, he was less so, or the Bull offense got a little wierd with the small line up.

by marionette on Nov 16, 2007 2:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

IF Bullls will play hard
like they played today,and if(IF)Sciles won't try
to be genuis we can beat both LAs.I wish.
We have to beat Kobe and Nickolson!
Go Bulls!There is still Hope.
But Wallace on TNT almost cryed,seriosly.

by Azabullsfan on Nov 16, 2007 1:39 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

RIP
to Ben Wallace! I remember the day you signed with the Bulls I was at work llistening to ESPN1000 it was just another day of depressing Chicago Baseball talk in the summer and then BAM breaking news Big Ben signs with the upstart Chicago Bulls and I swear I was going nuts! All of the sudden everyone was talking Bulls! Anyways RIP to Big Ben Wallace. You'll forever be in the Jalen Rose, Marcus Fizer,Eddy Curry, Brad Sellers, Jamal Crawford, Larry Kriscoviak, Dragon, whoever else played after Jordan. Eddie Robbinson! My God Eddie Robbinson he so much tallent but he just lacked a brain. If I could put my brian in his body oh my god!
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 1:47 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Sums it up
Good effort, worse shooting, too many lapses on defense, and missed layups.  The team played alright, and I only have one response:

38 MILLION DOLLARS!  WTF, mates?

But seriously, Tyrus is going to be a star.  He should play 41min, not Noce, especially against a team like this.  How many players in the NBA can frustrate Amare like he did?  For such a young guy, he showed a lot tonight.  Brought energy and some attitude, which we all agree is lacking at times.

If the Bulls make a few more open shots, but play like this, we can win against both LAs, Phoenix is better than they are.

On Tyrus Thomas: Get that man a table dance, please!

by cubbybear on Nov 16, 2007 1:49 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Lakers beat the Sun by 30.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 6:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

early morning thoughts on the game
Although we lost, I always love to watch the Bulls play the Suns b/c we match up very well them. It's still the sexiest pick for the NBA finals ...  

Besides that Toronto game, it's all about the 4th quarter for us no matter what happened before. Obviously, it's better to have a lead cushion to fall back on. But since we're playing so poorly, most likely we need to win games in the last period.

Tonight, it was 75-75 going into the 4th, 85-85 midway thru, and even 100-106 late under 2 min with the ball back. But then Hinrich with the bad shot -> turnover. Then Gordon with the bad pass -> turnover. And it's over. I also remember Deng missing his last two shots late ... but you can't fault that b/c they were his only shots of the quarter! Go figure. Get him the ball late please!

Everyone is going to question Skiles' rotations, moreso since we lost, but just a couple of comments:

  • even against the small Suns, a lineup of Du/Kirk/BG/Deng/Noc SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN in the NBA ... Diaw/Marion do well against centers/PFs respectively b/c of their quickness. that negates the Bulls small advantage
  • where was Noah in the game? perfect matchup for him the run the floor and defend
  • where was Big Ben in the 4th? leave him in to guard Amare, especially tonight after he came out with a lot of energy (10 boards in 20 min) ...  when Amare leaves, then take him out
  • Tyrus should've played the entire 4th quarter, and he should've played more in general (duh)
  • Duhon stayed just an extra minute or two too long in the 4th. At first, I was wondering where Gordon was during the first 6 minutes of the 4th, but then I realized Duhon was in doing a good job shutting down Barbosa (until that crucial broken play late).
  • Hinrich minutes about right, glad he found his shot
  • Noc couldn't play his bench minutes, so Deng played a little too much. would've liked to see Gardner play a little more (guess Thabo still in doghouse)
  • Joe Smith never got into rhythm this game ... I thought coaches would notice something like that. why Skiles would put him in at a crucial stretch late is beyond me. Joe is old, can't run with Suns, and can't guard Amare b/c he's paper thin

by Orange Juice on Nov 16, 2007 5:06 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

4th Quarter (last 6 minutes)
This reminded me of the Clipper game.  No matter what else had happened, the Bulls were in the game and even held a lead in the middle of the 4th.

Then they just puke all over themselves:

  • Hinrich gets the ball poked away and Marion gets the uncontested dunk.
  • Gordon throws a horrible pass into the post halfway between Deng & Hinrich.  I thought you were never supposed to pass into the post from the top - always from the wing?!
  • Hinrich reaches for the ball in the backcourt, gets burned, resulting in a Barbosa trey.  Barbosa had so much time he could have tied his shoes before the shot like a Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf free-throw.
  • Deng was bad in the 4th.  He was close to the basket but short on everything.  Was he tired or over-used?
  • I'm beginning to shudder everytime I see BG pound the ball at the top of the circle late in games.  There was one possesion in the 4th where Kirk clearly wanted the ball back (even Marv commented on it), but Ben wouldn't give it up.
Skiles himself had a weird game.  He put an odd-ball line up out there that was very effective (not sure, was it Du/BG/Thomas/Deng/Noc?).  Then just when you think he's a genius he gives you that "Super Tiny-Ball" lineup (Hinrich/Du/BG/Noc/Deng), which was a disaster.  No reason to sit TT during that stretch, or at least not leave Deng in as the center.  That's an absurd line-up for the NBA - I hope Paxson was paying attention.
Wrecked 'em? Damn near killed 'em!

by mdmnd9294 on Nov 16, 2007 8:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I too wondered
why BG didn't give Kirk the ball when he was wide open.
Racecar spelled backwards is racecar.

by sue369 on Nov 16, 2007 3:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's it
85 up and it went downhill from there.  You are right, the turnovers from our guards late in the 4th quarter are blowing games.  We had momentum coming back from down 14 to tie it at 75 and hold court for 10 more points.  But the late turnovers WERE ALL CONVERTED for easy buckets by the Suns.

The other day I used the term "BG Turnover" to describe a different kind of turnover that plagues Chicago.  The BG turnover will come from our guards, most of the time it will come from BG, and the TO will be so bad, such a poor demonstration of the game of basketball, that the opponent will have a 5 on 4 break because the Chicago guard to turns it over won't get back on defense.

Toronto converted these.  New Jersey converted these.  Milwaukee converted these.  Only the Toronto game wasn't close.  The NJ and MIL games were nail biters.  The Suns game falls into the same category.

by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 8:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Super-Ultra-Tiny-Ball
I think we need to exhaust the thesaurus to find more superlatives to emphasize exactly HOW tiny that line-up was.
Wrecked 'em? Damn near killed 'em!

by mdmnd9294 on Nov 16, 2007 2:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I like Microscopic Ball myself
The image of Kirk trying to front Marion in the post made me want to cry -

You could practically hear Marion thinking "throw it to me, I'm totally open - oh, wait, maybe there is a short little guard guy in front of me -just a sec, if I squint a little...  Hey, yeah, there is a guy fronting me, but I'm roughly 2 feet taller so he might as well not be there.  
Throw me the ball!"

"They had me do a psychology test and I asked Coach Skiles if that affected his coaching. He laughed and said, `No way.'" (Joakim Noah)

by wjb1492 on Nov 16, 2007 4:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You made my day
 I could imagine the whole thing...i see it in a family guy-ish manner....hilarious...thank you sir.
im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Nov 16, 2007 9:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The sad part
of this serio-comic vision of the Bulls' defense is that the situation you describe is occurring simultaneously at Shooting guard, power forward and center.  The Bulls are undermanned nearly everywhere you look.  Deng is the only appropriately-sized player (other than Hinrich when he's not guarding forwards) the Bulls put out on the court.

by alec on Nov 17, 2007 7:37 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

for all we know
Tyrus could've really needed a rest in the middle of the 4th (he should be getting his rest earlier, but as we all know he had to come off the bench).

And that's fine, but with the TV timeouts he should only be out a few posessions and then back in. And never should that super-ultra-tiny-ball lineup be in.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 11:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

My game images
Down 6 with some momentum and Hinrich thinks he is tossing a fish instead of shooting a basketball.  The other image I have is Ben Wallace missing point-blank shots that could have given the Bulls a boost.  Not having someone to convert easy points in the paint kills us.  These are uncontested lay-ups that seem to take the air out of the team.  I do not think we can succeed with Ben Wallace's offensive disability.  

That said I think TT did a good job both offensively as well as defensively.  He impacted Stoudemire and actually played some smart basketball.  He is our most improved player and impacts the game.  I have a good idea, start TT and have Noc come off the bench.

by chgobr on Nov 16, 2007 6:56 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Is it me or has Thomas lost like 2 inches off his
vertical? Maybe the muscle he put on takes some off.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 7:13 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I've wondered
about this, too.  He seems somehow less sudden.

by alec on Nov 16, 2007 7:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

thought I was the only one
who wondered the same thing...I don't know, maybe we've seen it so much now it starts to look the same to us.  Who knows...the weight thing might be right though.

It's strange...he's still explosive...but he just isn't looking like he's getting as high

I really don't care though...as long as he keeps playing well.

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 16, 2007 8:43 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It might be tendinitis in his knee
flaring up again.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 16, 2007 8:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's just you.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Nov 16, 2007 9:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm kind
of depressed today. :-( I want for them to win so much.

Kirk and BG need to stop with the awful TO's. I hope Kirk has his shot back. It was nice to see him make some last night.

Is it Skiles fault? Since next season is his third year of his contract maybe he won't be asked back.

Racecar spelled backwards is racecar.

by sue369 on Nov 16, 2007 7:38 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

well see how
The rest of the road trip goes but right now skiles has to be on thin ice. Some of these decisions are beyond questionable. We played are worst stretches of ball with NOCE in the lineup and TT on the bench. Skiles calls out Gordon but not NOCE. BG looked tenative several times picking up his dribble to PASS. DENG is easy to shut down because the bulls wanna weave / drive and kick and he can't dribble. Good to see KIRK hit some shots in the second half but he has to know late in games he's not our first option. A coach is supposed to get the most out of his best players. CURRY, CRAWFORD, and CHANDLER were in Skiles doghouse long before BG, TT and Thabo. All High draft picks. WE will never get full value for our talent because we don't go to their strengths. That's on Scott Skiles.

by Blacknight23 on Nov 16, 2007 7:39 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I agree about BG.
A lot of times when last year he would have taken the shot, he's passing the ball this year.  Last year, if you gave hin a couple of feet at the three point line he would immediately launch a shot.  Now he's just picking up his dribble and looking for something to do with the ball.  He looks totally confused and not himself,

by alec on Nov 16, 2007 8:08 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he is trying to do too much
like anything other than aggressively trying to score.  If he isn't putting up 30, I feel like he is a negative contributor for the game.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 16, 2007 8:54 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm stealing this idea from 'OldeBull'
but maybe Gordon is trying to prove he should be paid more by trying to show the league he really can be a playmaker.

He rarely shot in rhythym last night, it was annoying.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 9:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Enough with the Curry-Chandler-Crawford
stuff. They were the leftover pieces of an old regime that didn't have direction. Krause picked those guys, and then hired two coaches who couldn't properly play them. As is typical, ownership wants the GM, coach and players to be on the same page, but Curry couldn't rebound or defend, Crawford couldn't run a play (much less an offense) or defend, and Chandler could defend only. This is a bad thing for a coach who wants to emphasize a half-court game, which Paxson and Skiles were both aware of. It was a match made in hell from the get-go, which is why no one was surprised to see Curry and Crawford go (while the Chandler-for-Wallace swap looked very reasonable at the time). So that's on Krause, and not Skiles, who had nothing to do with having these three on his team.
I thought the Bulls were back... turns out they're just a back end...

by bullhockey on Nov 16, 2007 10:36 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

"Skiles calls out Gordon but not NOCE."
This made me mad too. Granted, Barbosa was the headline offender in the first half, so maybe Craig Saeger only asked Skiles about who was leaving him. But Nocioni had plenty of defensive breakdowns his own self in that game, and every game, yet you never hear Skiles get after him.

I know, it's likely because Skiles knows Noc is who he is, and Gordon's the one who can actually improve from these life lessons. But then Noc isn't only not called out, but rewarded with significant PT.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 11:37 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

question
Matt: Can you recall any specific plays where Noc really was displaying terrible defense?

From my recollection, and this is on par with other games in which Noc has appeared bad on defense, Noc's real dilemma is trying to make up for poor defense from our guards when the opponent sets up a screen at the top of the circle or on either wing just beyond the arc.  Sometimes the screener is Noc's man, but typically Noc is away from this play trying to guard his man that is holding position beyond the arc for a drive and kick option.

Essentially, I don't know if I can really bin the blame on Noc trying to close out when he's denying dribble penetration and the Chicago guards aren't protecting the passing lane back to the perimeter shooter.

In the Raptor and Suns games, this scenario played out at least 10 times in each game.

Also, Skiles does bench Nocioni.  He did it last season.  He's done it this season.  If Noc's defense really is awful, and Skiles knows it's Noc's fault, he'll call a timeout just to bench Nocioni.

by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 11:50 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

no specific plays
but in general, I see Noc over-helping constantly (devolving into just 'roaming' even), and he's not quick enough to do so.

Plus his help defense is just stepping in front and flopping, a strategy which is sadly effective at times but something I don't approve of.

I can't fault our guards for not stopping the initial penetration, they do a fine enough job and in the NBA it's rarely even slowed, if stopped.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 12:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

you must've heard
me screaming the same thing while watching the game last night.  I specifically remember at least 2-3 times where Noce was roaming/helping/floating and got burned because of it...the part that got me so mad was because he was trying to provide help on Nash...wtf?!

...it definitely got a couple of "take him out, take him out!" yells from me  :-)

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 16, 2007 12:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I saw those too
I noticed twice he left his man wide open for the 3 which connected both times. One of them buckled Noc's knees as he tried to get back.

I give the Suns credit. I never really watched the them play much in the past, but wow! Their offense flows like a machine. If you make a mistake, they'll make you pay. I was impressed.

by Hiryu on Nov 16, 2007 3:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Noc the "unfazed"
It's great that he keeps taking shots, and doesn't mind when he misses.. but must he shoot EVERY time he gets the ball?  It's becoming more than ridiculous.  And 41 minutes is way too much.

Also that Hinrich/Duhon/Gordon/Noc/Deng lineup is probably the worst thing ever.  I knew the game was over when that came on the floor.

However, I definitely saw some sparks of the old team.. haven't completely lost hope for the season yet.

by Jaina on Nov 16, 2007 8:14 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

anyone
Did anyone else notice if a five man squad of Kirk, BG, Deng, Noc, and T2 were on the floor at the same time?

This is the lineup that I thought was ideal for playing the Suns or the Raptors.  T2 just plays defense guarding big men.  Noc can take the PF defender into the paint.

I wanted Skiles to start this lineup, but Wallace is still in there.

by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 8:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I believe
that lineup was ideal.  Instead we were left with the gem of Kirk, Du, BG, Noc, Deng during the crucial part of the game...Inexcuseable!

by tyrus4prez on Nov 16, 2007 9:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I know there was one part where TT
was playing center.  It might have been that lineup actually.

by Jaina on Nov 16, 2007 12:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

and to add
the announcers on TNT said it was the best lineup of the game.

by Jaina on Nov 16, 2007 12:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

For those missing Curry & Crowford...
Don't bother.  They've even made their way into Isiah's doghouse:
Marbury wasn't the only target of Thomas' anger -- he also had conversations with Eddy Curry and Jamal Crawford and suggested either of them could find themselves on the bench if their games don't improve.
Wrecked 'em? Damn near killed 'em!

by mdmnd9294 on Nov 16, 2007 8:22 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

This is so funny.
Charles Barkley, from the Tribune report of his conversation with Dan Patrick last night:

Finally Barkley concluded, "I'll bet you if Juanita gets married again, she'll sign a [pre-nup]."

by alec on Nov 16, 2007 8:28 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Nash and Barbosa getting calls
Nash carries the ball a lot on the screens set up for him.  When the screener's defender steps out to deny the lane for a drive, Nash is palming the ball for a carry to bring it back across his body so the dribble can continue into the painted area.  I'll estimate about 30% of the time Nash is carrying the ball on this move.

The late foul on Kirk Hinrich was the worst call of the game.  Nash used his arm to push Kirk off his body.  Somehow Kirk was called for the foul.

Later, BG fouled Barbosa in what looked like an intentional foul called from the Bulls bench.  He just wrapped up Barbosa away from the ball.  Nash then shot two freebies at the line.  I have no idea what was called here but it was during a crucial moment of the game.

Barbosa has watched film of Wade and Devin Harris.  He's jumping into defenders initiating contact to get free points at the line.  The refs are giving him these calls despite the fact that jumping into the defender is a point of emphasis for the officials.

by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 8:55 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Refs weren't miserable BUT
I agree that there were some notable bad calls down the stretch. There's a variety to pick from, but my pick for most annoying was when the Bulls were on offense and Nash hit the ball out of Noc's hands sideline out of bounds. The Bulls were walking over to set up an inbound play when out-of-bounds was called on Kirk, who was a few feet away. The Bulls were caught off guard for a fraction of a second, but it was too late--the Suns scored within 3 seconds, fastbreak layup by Marion.

There were a few of these really bad calls at crucial times that helped the Bulls seal their fate.

I thought the Bulls were back... turns out they're just a back end...

by bullhockey on Nov 16, 2007 10:43 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Matt... about the GameFlow...
...if you link to it, or what-not, can you maybe do a side-bar diary of an explanation. (or maybe it's way simpler for that) I know it seems straight-forward, but I don't seem to find it as useful as you and others. I'm thinking that's probably because I don't fully understand it.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Nov 16, 2007 9:07 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Spend a little time getting to know the gameflow
and make it your friend.  It's a really nice way to visualize the statistics.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 16, 2007 9:17 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

not sure how much this helps
but here's my initial post (at this site, anyway) explaining it.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 9:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There's also a help link on the site
that gives a pretty good explanation, at least for the box score part.

I love the thing - there are so many statistical things I want to do with the info there, if I can every find the time.  Just statistical evidence to back up many of the observations people make, like Lu tending to disappear in the 4th and all, or the Bulls not playing "Bulls basketball" late in games.

"They had me do a psychology test and I asked Coach Skiles if that affected his coaching. He laughed and said, `No way.'" (Joakim Noah)

by wjb1492 on Nov 16, 2007 10:12 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Deng
Does anyone else think that Deng played pretty poorly on the defensive end?? For some reason, I remember being frustrated by our steadiest defender.  As for Nocioni, it's not like anyone else was going to take a good shot. Maybe if kirk stopped being a wus and started driving into the lane more, which he did but he cant finish near the basket so  he doesnt draw much attention.  What a horrible point guard at times. I wouldnt mind him being traded in a kobe deal and having Duhon run the point.  Duhon is pretty good defensively to and has finished well around the basket.

by Sambossanova on Nov 16, 2007 9:14 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Deng's Defense
Nothing stood out to me.  I can't recall one play he made on defense.

He is credited with 2 blocks, 1 steal, and 4 rebounds on the defensive end in the box score.

No stops at the end of the game in he final 8 minutes are the issue.

by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 9:17 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

deng's defense
yea his box score line is alright but grant hill sure was scorring a lot of points really easily and i think deng was on him for most the game.

by Sambossanova on Nov 16, 2007 4:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

not that it's anything new
but the problem is our guards.  Even though he FINALLY started to hit some shots, Kirk is still playing like trash.  And as much as I hate to say it, BG is playing like trash too.

What is up with all of the dumb turnovers?!  You won't beat anyone with your backcourt playing like a couple of rookies.

Ben finally started to find his shooting eye a little bit, but come on, he has to quit with the bad passes.  Throwing the ball into traffic (not just once but several times) gets old.

Same with Kirk...wtf was he doing on that drive when they cut it to 6?!?  It looked like he was playing volleyball and was trying to slap it over the net.

I think the rest of team has started to play a little more even...but the guards have to get it together.

Two missed layups aside, Wallace looked...uhhh, a tiny bit better.  Maybe it was the hair?  Don't know...but this is one time where I think he should've been out there in the 4th.  As was already mentioned, Skiles sat on certain lineups WAY too long.  Joe Smith just didn't have it last night but Skiles brought him back in anyway???  Huh??

Other observations:

-I didn't need to see Gardner out there.  He looked a little lost to me.  I think he only played for a 2-3 minutes or so, but those were 2-3 minutes longer than he should've gotten.

-Where's Thabo??...oh yeah, in the doghouse.  He's tall, he's fast...maybe put him on Barbosa for a few??  Damn Skiles...

-Duhon played decent?? (gulp)...actually I was pleased with his play

-Lu disappeared in the 4th.  Don't know if that was all on him or a by-product of Kirk finally taking and hitting some shots.  Two 4th quarter shots won't cut it though

-Too many minutes and shots for Noce...damn, pass the freakin ball

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 16, 2007 9:28 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

*edit*
Gardner actually played 5 minutes...ok, so those were 5 more minutes than he should've gotten

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 16, 2007 9:31 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Gardener
He was guarding Barbosa.  The other Bulls guarding Barbosa couldn't stop his penetration either.  So Gardener was no worse than any other guard on the roster.

He did miss an open three in the corner.  It looked like good form, nice elevation, no hesitation to launch, it just didn't fall.

He did flash to the rim when his man left him to help on the low block.  I think it was Du that found him for an easy layup.

His -5 +- rating is likely the result of playing help d and leaving Barbosa open for a three.

by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 9:36 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

that's why
I said that Skiles should've put Thabo in the game.  I'm not saying that he would've stopped Barbosa either, but he seems the best equipped to do it in my opinion.

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 16, 2007 9:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
If we don't get Thabo in games teams cannot see him, he'll only regress watching from the bench, and his value will decline over time.

Phoenix wants Thabo.  They were going to draft him in 2006.  They figured he'd fall and they'd collect him like they did with Barbosa.

Right now, Thabo is only going to make it past Skiles if Duhon is playing terrible.

by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 10:12 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

They knew
he wouldn't fall that far, but were trying to trade up to take him. Pax made it moot.

They were heartbroken not to get ATL pick so they could take Noah this year. I was heartbroken I didn't get to see any Noah PT in an open game last night.

by marionette on Nov 16, 2007 3:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

BG's turnovers
5 of them.  Most of them late in the game when teams were trading buckets.  Two crucial ones after the score was tied at 85.

by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 9:33 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

2TOs, 1FG
in his 4th quarter stint (6 minutes)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 9:44 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You don't think Observer actually...
...looks at "stats", as in: recorded information, do you? He observed most of his TO's in the 4th and they all led to buckets. Obviously, it's true.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Nov 16, 2007 9:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You can read my game notes
This was my first run at trying to record a Bulls game in writing.  Over time it will improve.

http://www.blogabull.com/story/2007/11/16/75720/560

I'll watch the game again tonight or Sat morning to review.

by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 10:07 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

either way
it's still a bad line. I put that out there more to say he didn't even shoot the ball.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 10:08 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

gameflow
Is up.

Luol was 0-2 with 2FTs in the 4th quarter. Sheesh.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 9:43 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Something worth pondering
Maybe Noc starting is good for future trades. Whomever the Bulls want to trade with will want a couple starters and Noc and Gordon are a couple starters!

by Option27 on Nov 16, 2007 9:54 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Isn't Noc
Available to be traded soon too?  I thought the waiting period for players signed over the summer ended soon.  

by upther on Nov 16, 2007 10:07 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

December 15th
That's the day his contract can be traded.

by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 10:08 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Dec 15 is the day
when over-the-summer signees are available to be traded

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 16, 2007 10:08 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

12/15
or as I call it: early Christmas.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 10:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

by the way
be thankful Pax didn't wait for Noc to sign an offer sheet, because if they matched an offer instead of just re-signing him, he couldn't be traded for a year.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 11:32 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well,
Here's to hoping for an early Christmas present.

by upther on Nov 16, 2007 10:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I honestly think
Gordon and Noc could get us something really good.

Now if you could throw in Ben Wallace too, then I'm loving life all over again.

by Option27 on Nov 16, 2007 10:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Indeed
Cheers to Hot Sh*t College Student. Nice posting.
I thought the Bulls were back... turns out they're just a back end...

by bullhockey on Nov 16, 2007 10:47 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Time to rebuild
We've seen these Bulls at their best. I don't think the core has anymore upside left. They used to out work their opponent but as all of you know work can only get you so far. This experiment of Pax has revived the franchise but has also fallen short. Good work Pax but not great work.

The next great superstar is in the next year's draft. I'm telling ya, Mayo and Beasley are in the same league as Durant, Howard and LeBron. These are the people you build a franchise around. Derrick Rose is also good but more of a complementary player than a bona fide superstar. After those three the draft really drops off (Roy Hibbert anyone?). I don't mind watching another lottery as long as we get that superstar we need. And yes, we need a SUPERSTAR. And he isn't coming from any of the current Bulls.

And also fire Skiles.

by Kantut on Nov 16, 2007 11:22 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

My point is...
... the Bulls need a superstar. If we can't get Kobe or any current disgruntled superstar, we have to make sure we one from the draft. And I think the Bulls are bad enough this year to do it especially with dictator Skiles at the helms. And if we get that superstar we better fire Skiles. Look what he did to poor Jason Kidd who until now has a bad taste in his mouth whenever Skiles is mentioned. Scott is a great coach for a team with no egos but superstars have egos (except Tim Duncan) and you have to accommodate them.

by Kantut on Nov 16, 2007 11:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd like to nominate Boy
as the next to go.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 16, 2007 11:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

no nominations!
that should've been immplied with 'no voting'

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 12:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Booooo
you're taking all the fun out of this.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 16, 2007 12:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What drives Skiles crazy?
Really awful turnovers.  Jason Kidd had lots of these and they often came in bunches.

Our guards are having a similar issue.  Their turnovers are bad turnovers, late in the game, that nearly 100% of the time converted into fast break dunks, layups, and sometimes and 1 opportunities.

Even a superstar like Steve Nash will turn it over.  He had 5 of them last night.  What you need is a balance of good and bad where the good is more often to offset the bad.  Nash did that last night by finishing with 15 assists.

by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 11:55 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Skiles never gave our guards a chance...
...to redeem themselves. That's how you drive your players crazy.

by Kantut on Nov 16, 2007 12:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Rebuild?
Ya know....watching and reading...
and watching and reading...

I'm not so sure they need to rebuild.
For sure tweek things a bit, and get a "take over in the 4th" leader on the team (enter name here)...

But from what I've seen over the last few years, I think what someone said about this team "outgrowing" Skiles seems more and more correct.

Skiles is a blow-hard, drill sergeant, what-have-you-done-for-me-lately, kiss-ass lover type of coach.
And we've seen it - if you piss Skiles off, no matter HOW good you are, you're gonna be on the bench. And THAT is NOT a good approach.

And I think the guys are tired of that, all the trade BS that happened, and Skiles' general line-up stupidity BS....
And in the end, disenchanted and not enjoying themselves AT ALL because of it.
It shows in their play, the looks on their faces while they're on the bench, and whatever else...

So I don't think they necessarily need to rebuild...
I think rather that perhaps - PERHAPS - Pax needs to make the big decision and pull the plug on Skiles before the team disintegrates....IF it isn't already too late.

Just some thought....

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Nov 16, 2007 11:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with that, McLovin
But with a deck of 7s, 8s and 9s, we're not going to win the game. We need to swap some of those cards and hope for a few aces or kings. Even if we had the lovechild of Phil Jackson and Red Auerbach coaching us, he can only get us so far with limiting talent. The Bulls were able to disguise their lack of talent by hard work but in the end it's only going to get you this far, one and six.

by Kantut on Nov 16, 2007 12:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I never heard the 'deck of cards' plan
of championship building, but four 9s beat A-K-6-6

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 12:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Rose
will be the most athletic point guard in the league - when you watch him at Memphis, his speed, size and explosiveness and quickness stand out in the same way Hester did at Miami.  Is he as polished as Beasley/Mayo?  I have no clue.

But weirdly enough I think one of the Bulls' biggest problems is the point guard position.  For all his virtues, Kirk doesn't possess the ability to consistently break down defenses, score or generate offense for others.  He's a combo guard, and a good one, but we need someone who can penetrate and score.  That lack is probably why we've seen so much Duhon over the last years.

by Freethefro on Nov 16, 2007 12:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There have been several athletic PGs
But the most successful ones cant jump over yo mama to save his life. Nash, Stockton and Magic had better careers than Steve Francis, Kevin Johnson and Starbury. So I'd still go with either Mayo or Beasley. Mayo can get to the hoop at will and is more solidly built than Rose. While Beasley is Durant with some attitude. Same states, same height but more muscle and nastiness.

by Kantut on Nov 16, 2007 12:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow. Kelly Dwyer Just Broke It Down
here:

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-28-296/Kelly-Dwyer-Breaks-Down-the-Bulls.html

This is nothing that Hot Sh*t College Student (or anyone that reads his site, Thank you Isiah), or any TrueHoop reader has not already read. So excuse me for the repetition, but this is just too good to not discuss here.

Of particular brilliance is the last phrase in the following passage:

"This is still a damn good basketball team. Should they make the playoffs, I like Chicago's chances with any Eastern team outside of the Nets (whom I loathe, to be candid, but match up well against the Bulls)."

Clearly, this man's a genius, as he has perfectly articulated how loathsome the Nets are, despite seeming to always have the Bulls' number.

As for the first part of that quote, that the Bulls are "still a damn good basketball team", his blog entry comes with the requisite amount of irony: He ends by asking us to excuse him, while he's off to "pretend I believe any of this."

I knew Kelly Dwyer was good, but... day-um...

I thought the Bulls were back... turns out they're just a back end...

by bullhockey on Nov 16, 2007 11:48 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

thanks
but I just provide free content for people who have email addresses that prove they're actual writers.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 16, 2007 12:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

My thoughts
I still think we should start Joe Smith.  I think Nocioni and Thomas play well together off the bench.  Let the two old guys start, settle things down, rebound, and then we can finish the games with Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Nocioni and Tyrus, the group that looked the best last night.  Unless we're going up against a big center then I guess we need Ben Wallace in there.

by JSlakov on Nov 16, 2007 12:07 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Reality check : these guys suck, season over
Come on! When you're getting lit up like that by Grant freaking Hill and his frankensteinish ankles, you need to be thinking "trade" "draft picks" and "salary cap space" above all else.
What's the difference between a steakhouse and the United Center? One serves people steak, the other is filled with a bunch of dead Bulls.

by vlad001 on Nov 16, 2007 1:25 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

The Bulls are a 1/2 game
up on the LAST PLACE Miami Heat. They're actually tied in the win columnt. It's a pretty pathetic time to be assossiated with this organization in any way. Paxson is the laughingstock of NBA circles for his moves with Chandler, Curry, and Wallace alone.

And to think that they signed Hinrich, out of all people, first. Wow... this braindead tape-job by Paxson is melting before everyone's eyes. This team is lifeless and among the bottom 5 in the NBA.

What's the difference between a steakhouse and the United Center? One serves people steak, the other is filled with a bunch of dead Bulls.

by vlad001 on Nov 16, 2007 1:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Explain to me how this was the hardest game
on the roadtrip?

Suns = random NBA good team that the Bulls can beat or lose to on any given night.

Raptors and Clippers = both on this trip, both OWN the Bulls.

Lottery Bound Horribulls.

by hongydraw on Nov 16, 2007 3:49 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

quick explanation
the Suns are better than the Raptors or Clippers.

They've lost the past two against the Raps, but before then the Bulls won like 15 straight. You're so overdramatic Hongy.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 3:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i actually think it is 4 losses
including that one preseason game.

the own-ness has been transfered.

Lottery Bound Horribulls.

by hongydraw on Nov 16, 2007 4:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

your own-ness has been transferred
from a 'best in the east' at 1-5 to 'lottery' at 1-6.

so, nyah.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 4:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Clips and Raptors
If we don't know how to beat these teams now, it's going to be a long season.

Raptors have real weaknesses.  They have to outscore you to win.  Their shooters can get buckets, but they cannot guard anyone.  Bargnani can be posted up by point guards.  His defense is terrible.  He should be target number 1 to get into foul trouble.  They'll bring in Kapono who is the same exact player only 4 inches shorter.  Play the same strategy.

With losses to the Raptors in Chicago and the Suns in Phoenix, this Bulls team better know how to defeat these 7 second shot clock clubs or, as I said, it's going to be a long season.

The Clippers?  We match them well.  So long as Cuttino Mobley doesn't shoot 90% from the field we can beat them in their house.

by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 4:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't be surprised
if Paxson and Colangelo have a secret place where they meet and drown their coaching contract extension sorrows together.

by alec on Nov 16, 2007 4:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So
that's where Pax fills him in on facts that so-and-so dropped in the draft because he got picked up for some crime.  

And then they compare their Italian suits, and wonder who's the next European player to be a star.

by KT on Nov 16, 2007 6:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

How come nobody mentioned this?
Or maybe we're all too numb to care about it...three references to TT in Sam Smith's article about the game...and each one 100% lauditory.  Even though it may count for little in the big picture, for me anyway, it was nice to see Thomas not get trashed again by Sam.

by alec on Nov 16, 2007 3:52 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Sam's a good basketball reporter
when he's reporting the games.  It's a different persona than the one that writes columns and cares too much if a player talks to him.

He was a great beat writer 20 years ago.

by KT on Nov 16, 2007 3:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

usually though, all he does
is say that Deng, Gordon, Duhon, Nocioni, Thomas, Noah, and Smith will be traded to the Rockets for Yao Ming and T-Mac on Thursday of next week, accodring to his inside source.
Lottery Bound Horribulls.

by hongydraw on Nov 16, 2007 4:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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