Skiles to reach into his bag of (one) trick

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2007 11:57 PM CST in News Comment 103 comments

Ah, another fine Bulls tradition: not just the losing games early, but the knee-jerk lineup changes.

Skiles said he spent some of the practice taking a look at different lineups.

"Everything is in play now."

That includes activating guard Thomas Gardner, the last player to earn a roster spot, and finding floor time for veteran swingman Adrian Griffin, who suggested the team meeting and is considered by Skiles to be s [typo? likely, but I like including 'b.s.' -Matt] a calming presence on the court.

It remains to be seen how happy some of the players will be should Skiles make significant changes to his starting lineup and rotation, which he hopes will manifest itself in better spacing on offense as early as the Bulls' next game, Thursday at Phoenix.

"The other thing is we have to get better bench performances," Skiles said. "If that means I have to take somebody out of the lineup to bring them off the bench because I like them matching up against some second-unit guys, then that's an element, too."

Bench performance is 'the other thing', but so insignificant to 'the big thing', as in your best players not performing, that it shouldn't even be an issue until 'the big thing' is fixed.

And lets just get right to it: Skiles is going to bench Ben Gordon. He does it every year, it's his one trick to get his 'low-turnover' pet player in and relegate Gordon to the supposed sparkplug role.

I've seen this story before: now when they win (even though they're going to win some games anyway, and it'll have nothing to do with the lineup change) we'll have to sit through 3 months of Gordon being benched until he works his way back in. I wish it was an overreaction, but really: do you think if Gordon's benched and they win a few games Skiles will say he's 'gotten the message' and let him back in?

None of the theories for this work for me. Gordon hasn't played better off the bench. "Matching up against some second-unit guys" only means their starters are matching up against your second-unit guys that you put in the starting lineup. He won't be getting the same amount of minutes sitting as he does being benched, since he's already guaranteed to sit the first 6 or so minutes each half.

The worst part is that there's nobody exactly tearing it up on the bench to get in the lineup. Duhon? Move Deng to the 2 and play Nocioni? This is really the benefit that the team will get for sitting one of their best players?

Meanwhile, Pax talks in the same article of evaluating "from a whole organizational standpoint". If that's the case, then he'll stop this madness before it starts. Either by 'suggesting' to Skiles this is pointless, or by trading Gordon. Clearly the organization doesn't know what to do with him if they keep pegging him as a bench player while offering him a $50m contract extension (then again, they gave a $38m contract extension to a bench player, so who knows?). Not to mention how fast Gordon will want out of town anyway if he sees the same writing on the wall.

The offense has been terrible, so moving their best offensive player isn't much help. Hopefully the tinkering remains on the fringes, like playing Gardner over Thabo for a few games, or trying the big lineup more at times. If they bench Gordon I'm giving up on the season. And likely giving up on Skiles too. Not that I won't watch, but I won't care. I don't need to see it all over again.

Update: The Trib has more juicy quotes and speculation on the topic:

"We're not going to do anything crazy,"Skiles said. "But is 1-5 the right time? 1-9? It's not even so much the record. It's the way we've played. This is different than wanting to hold, say, two guys accountable or anything like that.

"We have to find a way to get shocked out of our malaise. It's probably going to have to come initially from me and then see what happens."

At least one known lineup under consideration features guard Ben Gordon coming off the bench, according to players.

Skiles also said he would revisit the inactive list, with both Griffin and Thomas Gardner likely to be activated. That could mean struggling second-year guard Thabo Sefolosha could get an unwanted break.

"Our spacing hasn't been good," Skiles said. "So a change may be something that hopefully provides us more spacing."

Well, KC's speculation and Skiles' quotes don't jive. Because benching Gordon is doing something crazy. And how does benching the team's best shooter help the 'spacing'? Or is 'spacing' just a Skiles buzzword at this point?

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I think

Du should start in place of Kirk.Just throwing an idea out.

by eross226 on Nov 12, 2007 11:55 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

shouldn't be in "try something" mode yet

because really there's no one problem.

However if you're looking for culprits, Hinrich's having a worse season than Gordon, and Duhon fits better taking Hinrich's place than Gordon's.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2007 11:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah my first thought when I heard this was

benching Kirk and Wallace. Personally I love the idea of playing Gardner. He's good in the passing lanes and can nail 3's as you guys know. Not saying he's the fix but I really thought he was going to get more PT than this. I still think you give the starters one more chance before pulling the plug. I like Duhon off the bench.

If things continue to suck balls I wouldn't mind seeing

Gordon
Deng
Nocioni
Tyrus
Smith

I don't know how you bench the two guys with the biggest contracts on the team though.

lalalalalalalalalala we once had a basketball team!A basketball team.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 13, 2007 12:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

hmm

that was preseason. who knows what he will do during the regular season. For example, I think Thabo was doing fine until the season actually started.

by Sambossanova on Nov 13, 2007 12:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah but that was Thabo

and he shot silly string at me. He is just a tool and everyone is finally seeing that now. Really his head is somewhere else and not on baskeball.http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZMwjtoqy93s

Come on dude. Ballin? What happened to this shit?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lHJktUUuSfc

Come on Thabo shave the corn rolls shave the corn rolls.

The hip hop version of Thabo sucks.

lalalalalalalalalala we once had a basketball team!A basketball team.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 13, 2007 12:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

His bro ...

is the one with the mind away from basketball and into music.

Thabo was just spending time with his brother and doing silly things together (like trying to rap).

Thabo's brother, whose name is unpronouceable (Kgomotso) is a DJ (and occasional rapper).

In basketball, Thabo does everything better than Kgomotso, except shooting the ball. He, he, seems familiar ?

People should stop expecting Thabo to be a "regular" shooting guard that knocks down jumpers at a high percentage. This is not Thabo. Thabo's game is drives on offense, and lock-down defense, plus great at rebounding.

Now of course, if he could improve his J, then it would help his natural offensive game (drives to the hoop), by keeping the defenser close to him so that he can beat him off the dribble.

Since most of you guys are down on Thabo at the moment, here is for fun (and especially for you JoeJoe, although it's not youtube) a little video of his first profesional team (Vevey) this year.

http://www.vrbasket.ch/

click on the link "video1" in the first article appearing on the home page.

The Game chose him !

by Diabolo on Nov 13, 2007 7:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

well

don't rule out that he'll bench Thomas and start Joe Smith.

And hilariously enough, your two hated players in Duhon and Nocioni are our two most valuable over at 82games.com so maybe they are "lighting it up" in comparison.

But no I don't think Gordon should be benched for either of them. If you bench Gordon you have to bench Hinrich too because he's been just as bad if not worse on both ends of the floor and we all know that would never happen.

by JSlakov on Nov 13, 2007 12:00 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I totally agree

I think it could be really easily smoothed over with him, mainly because other teams' second units wouldn't know what to do with him. He's great as a starter, but I think he could easily be in contention for a sixth man award if he came off the bench. I'm pretty sure he would defer to Smith and the good of the team.

by brianmita on Nov 13, 2007 9:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Give

Viktor a shot whats the worst that can happen.

by eross226 on Nov 13, 2007 12:02 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

uh, we keep losing?

Holy crap are people out there this desperate already?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2007 12:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

We went from Kobe to Viktor....

ohhhh god put a bullet in my head.

lalalalalalalalalala we once had a basketball team!A basketball team.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 13, 2007 12:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The worst?

Viktor misses shots, makes bad passes, and plays can't stop anyone on defense.

The only thing Viktor can do is make free throws and finish on the fast break. He doesn't do anything else very well at all.

by NBA Observer on Nov 13, 2007 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ugh

I really hope Pax never bought into Skiles' annual shakeup.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 13, 2007 12:28 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Wow you think some of our comments are bad?

Please fellas. Have a little faith in the Lakers. This team resembles the Chicago Bulls of the mid-90s. I think they can win it all.

LakersNation.com has lost their minds. How can they really get into that team? It's garbage.

lalalalalalalalalala we once had a basketball team!A basketball team.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 13, 2007 12:29 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

but they have a star!!!!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2007 12:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Mariotti typo.

Suddenly, people are remembering the 341 losses in six years, the false promises that Tracy McGrady and big-name free agents would be delivered, the embarrassment when Jerry Krause dispatched Benny the Bull to greet Tim Duncan at the airport. When the Bulls finally won 47.

Whaaaaaaa????? Tim Duncan never came to O'hare? Dumbass that was McGrady.

lalalalalalalalalala we once had a basketball team!A basketball team.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 13, 2007 12:35 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

We need to something -

I don't know what it is but we cannot start the game Thursday doing the same-old. I am up for anything that gets us a win.

by chgobr on Nov 13, 2007 8:42 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

i pretty much

threw up when I read all of the "Skiles shake up" articles this morning.

Even before reading the entire article, I KNEW it was going to boil down to BG getting benched.

(Steps up on my soapbox)

I keep saying it, and I've been saying it ever since I joined this blog, I will never understand why Gordon always gets blamed for all of the Bulls' shortcomings. ONLY in Chicago will they consider putting the team's leading scorer on the bench.

Hmmm...Dallas started 0-4 last season, I didn't see Avery Johnson threatening to shake things up and bring Dirk off the bench.

This is completely insane, dumb, stupid, retarded, crazy, idiotic, brainless, whatever else you want to call it. If they bench Ben, I'm completely through with supporting Skiles and his no-coaching azz. Fuck Skiles and fuck Paxson. It's not like Pax doesn't have any pull. Whatever hairbrain scheme Skiles cooks up, Pax goes right along with it likes it's the best idea since sliced bread.

I'm not sure whats wrong with these two idiots, but for some reason they hold serious grudges against whomever leads the team in scoring...that person is always the scapegoat, and eventually is ushered out of town. The writing is on the wall for BG.

IF they bench ben, if I'm Ben, I go right in Paxson's office and quitely demand to be traded. If's he going to continue to be held accountable for Kirk's ineffectiveness, Wallace's bad play, and the bench's terribleness, then he might as well get out of town now. There's no future for him here. I would hate to see him go but I would rather him leave then constantly be treated like the scapegoat.

Defensive shortcomings aside, the game is about scoring points...how the hell do you do that with your leading scorer on the bench? Skiles (or anyone else for that matter) can scream turnovers all you want, but so far, Gordon has a total of 18 to Kirk's 17. Lu is right behind with 14. That tells me that THREE players are being sloppy, not just one.

I really hate this...I'm sick of knee-jerk reactions and I'm sick of Skiles. I'm sick of Paxson. Chicago sports make me want to puke

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 13, 2007 8:47 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I think everyone is overreacting to this

Skiles just said he might want to mix things up from a matchup perspective. He is not at all saying that Gordon will play reduced minutes or a less significant role. Nor is he implying that Gordon temporarily moving to the bench would be a demotion or that Gordon would be viewed as a scapegoat for the poor start. Pax and Skiles clearly still believe that this team is a contending team. They are just trying to come up with a way to jump-start them. A lineup change is a little gimmicky, but it does alter the on-court dynamic slightly, and that may be all Skiles thinks the team needs to help them shake off the doldrums and start playing Bulls basketball.

I am always a little amused at how freaked out everyone here gets with the starter thing (not just you Scottie). The team has said repeatedly that starting doesn't matter; finishing does. And they are right. In theory, if Gordon plays 35 minutes/game, it makes absolutely no difference to his ability to score if those minutes do not include the first 6 minutes of each half.

Not that I am necessarily sold on this approach. The problem obviously is that if you cannot replace Gordon's scoring early, the team could be playing from behind every game. But its also possible that the scoring will equalize and some of the starters will simply score more of their own points before Gordon comes in and starts taking more of the available shots. Whether that nets out to more or less total scoring is the issue. But its too simple to just say its assinine to bring your best scorer off the bench, period, particularly if you assume he is playing the same total minutes.

I also think Ben is a special case. He is no Dirk. He is a scorer who is something of a defensive liability and, as has been expressed here repeatedly, he puts an extra burden on Kirk defensively. I'm not sure that they have a solution to that (Duhon starting with Kirk at the 2 still leaves Kirk on the larger opposing 2s, Sefo can't score so that lessens the likelihood that the team could make up Gordon's early points, and I can't speak to Deng at the 2 other than it seems a little far-fetched not having watched any preseason), but the fact remains that while Gordon is their leading scorer, he is not clearly their best player, certainly not to the level where he needs to be playing as many minutes as possible (how many games did he play 40+ minutes? He averaged around 33 last season).

In short, I wouldn't stop caring, or give up on the season, or throw up in my mouth a little if I saw Gordon coming off the bench in Phoenix. If they come home from this road trip 1-11, THEN my head will be in the toilet.

My favorite metric of a team's quality is the often underappreciated "win/loss record"

by preverbal on Nov 13, 2007 9:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

he won't sniff 35 MPG

coming off the bench.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 13, 2007 9:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't understand all the defense of BG

Plain and simple, if he was playing well, this wouldn't even be an option. He's not. Playing BG forces others (Hinrich duh) out of position. BG has to bring something to the table to make up for that. He isn't right now. He's not defending well, he's not handling the ball well, he's not even shooting well. So what if he scores the most, he also shoots the most, and if he isn't efficient with those shots, he's hurting the team.

It's easy to point fingers at other players, especially since they are all playing like shit, but that doesn't make BG's performance any better. If it means moving Deng to two and putting Noc in, Noc will make up for the lost offense. However, if it means starting Duhon, even "Matt" Duhon, that's just dumb because that means Hinrich replaces BG and Hinrich can't shoot with his busted knuckle. In fact, if Duhon is the new starter, I'm jumping on the fire Skiles bandwagon.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 13, 2007 9:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

meh

Deng and Nocioni rely on open shots more than Gordon, and neither draw fouls. I don't see how a problem is solved by creating more. Turnovers could go up too, as both make Gordon look like Kidd in the ball handling department.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 13, 2007 9:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and really

the worst starter has been Ben Wallace. If anyone should be pulled it's the guy who's been barely able to play.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 13, 2007 9:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's probably the biggest problem

because not only does BG have to help make up a scoring deficit, but guys are cheating off Wallace and making it impossible for anybody to get into the lane with any regularity.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 13, 2007 9:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

Bench the big Ben. Start Joe Smith at the 5?

Smith
Thomas
Deng
Gordon
Hinrich

It might help to get another shooter out there, especially if Skiles insists on bringing in Gordon as a 6th man scorer.

Other teams might then abuse the Bulls inside, however.

My favorite metric of a team's quality is the often underappreciated "win/loss record"

by preverbal on Nov 13, 2007 10:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I can't see Wallace getting benched

inactivated before benched.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2007 10:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

I would be shocked to see him benched. Inactivate him then and activate Gardner or something.

My favorite metric of a team's quality is the often underappreciated "win/loss record"

by preverbal on Nov 13, 2007 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Smith starting?

I don't think he'd last much past Christmas if he was getting starter minutes. Would he be as effective in the 4th quarter if he was also starting? I doubt it.

Wrecked 'em? Damn near killed 'em!

by mdmnd9294 on Nov 13, 2007 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

sure, he's not playing well

but it's been 6 games. Hasn't Gordon earned the job and a little more leeway than 6 games?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2007 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

based on what?

one-half year as the starter?

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 13, 2007 10:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yes?

And I don't think he's a different player coming off the bench in the first place. So just the fact that he's always been pretty good, and last year especially good, is enough for me.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2007 11:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He may not be different

but the players he is going against are. He's a sixth man of the year winner coming off of the bench. And what exactly is "especially" good. What did he do that was special?

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 13, 2007 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

shot better

Scored better. I know you don't like Gordon's game, but he's good at what he does, and conveniently that something is what the team is awful at. (I know his struggles are contributing to the team's struggles, obviously)

6th man of the year is meaningless (Kevin Garnett would be pretty good off the bench too), as is any reliance on bench scoring. Why have Gordon go against 2nd teamers so opponents' starters can go against Chris Duhon? (or whomever). Why wait 6 minutes until the 'real' team is on the floor?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2007 11:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I already agreed with you

that making Duhon the starter is a bad idea. We're not arguing that. But there is at least a difference with starting Deng at 2. I'm not sure if it would necessarily be an improvement, but you can make the argument that it would be a worthwhile experiment.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 13, 2007 11:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What would you recommend?

If you don't like the idea of juggling the starting line-up, what do you think Skiles can do at this point? When 4 of the 5 starters are playing far below expectations, what really can the coach do?

These guys are veterans now, they know what's expected of them. They need to go out and execute. Can Skiles really "coach harder"? The team's "core" is just plain sloppy right now. Poor shooting, poor defense, high turnovers - they've regressed across the board.

Besides new-comer Joe Smith, the only returning players who are playing well are TT and Duhon. I'll add Noce to that list if he gets more minutes. Smith is everything he was advertised to be. TT's progression has exceeded my expectations. I think it's interesting that the other two guys are two of the more maligned players on the team.

But the bottom line is the same now as it was after the NJ loss: the top 4 players on the Bulls are just plain bad right now. How do they get good again?

Wrecked 'em? Damn near killed 'em!

by mdmnd9294 on Nov 13, 2007 10:35 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I agree: Skiles should do nothing

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2007 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Skiles & patience?

It's tough to preach patience as the solution in the midst of this; probably doubly so for a hands-on guy like Skiles. He doesn't seem the "ride it out" kind of person.

Here's my motivational suggestion: During the entire circus trip, the only inflight movies should be the game films from the Philly and Toronto games.

Wrecked 'em? Damn near killed 'em!

by mdmnd9294 on Nov 13, 2007 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Anyone listen to Hanley on the Score?

He's such a Skiles parrot, even invoking A-Drain as a 'calming influence'.

The consensus is that the only logical change is to bench Gordon. argh.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2007 10:44 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

this is turning into

an even uglier "Skiles never gave up" school of thought to explode in 2 weeks, regardless of the W-L record. Sycophants.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 13, 2007 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I heard that too

And all I can think of is, "Where is the logic behind it?"

by Option27 on Nov 13, 2007 12:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's amazing

How underappreciated BG is. WE constantly make comparisions between him and Hinrich but Paxson drafted them to play together. BG is a notorious slow starter and missed most of the preseason. If there was any starter I'd expect to pick it up it would be him. Deng has played like crap all this go to guy talk getting in his head. He constantly catches and shoots contested midfange jumpers. Where is his attack game? Is it Gordons fault Deng is not an aggresive player? Hinrich is either injured or uninterested he would seem like a great canidate to bring off the bench. He has not really improved his game since he got here and has been critized for his offseason work ethic. Send a message fine
This should be your
Starting Lineup

Gordon
Griffin
Deng
Smith
Wallace

1st Guard
Hinrich

1st Big Man
Thomas

Duhon
Noah

PS someone tell Coach Skiles nobody plays more than 8 or 9 regulars in the rotation

by Blacknight23 on Nov 13, 2007 11:11 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Griffin is perhaps the worst player in the league

they're basically paying him a million bucks to call team meetings. So he's doing fine work in that role.

Really though, he's awful. His 'calming influence' reputation is garbage, since he turns over the ball like crazy.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2007 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You really don't know what you're talking about

AG started for the 06 Mavs finals team. He started most of the playoffs.

In the lineup posted, Griffin would start because he plays better defense and has height than any of our other guards. BG plays no defense at all. Hinrich sucks at defense right now. Duhon is to small. Thabo's head is somewhere else right now. And Thomas Gardener and Curry are rookies. It's Griffin by default.

He's a quality player that needs minutes like any other guy. You can't just throw him out there for 6 minutes a week and expect results.

by NBA Observer on Nov 13, 2007 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're exactly right

What we need right now is to start an offensively challenged guard to go with our offensively challenged center in an offense that is better than only Miami and Charlotte right now.

Griffin might be the best locker room guy in the whole world but he isn't the answer to what ails the Bulls.

by upther on Nov 13, 2007 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

hello?

I was defending AG against the "he's the worst player in the league" rant. I don't even want AG to start, but I think I understand those that do want him to start along side BG.

by NBA Observer on Nov 13, 2007 4:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

worst.

amongst them.

That stint with Dallas was a full season and several back ailments ago. And they enjoyed it so much they didn't exactly strain to keep him from the Bulls.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2007 4:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

griffins

Not the answer to the bulls problem. I agree. I also never said that. Playing one of the "WORST PLAYERS" in place of a team captain would send a message. Putting Gordon on the bench sends the message that he'll be available next year for cheap. Also if Griffin is so terrible maybe Pax needs to be fired for giving him 3 years.

by Blacknight23 on Nov 13, 2007 5:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

How does starting him alongside Gordon make things better? He's still an offensively challenged guard. In that season he spent in Dallas he played in 52 games and averaged 24 minutes, 4.6 points, and 1.7 assists. What about that line makes anybody think he's a valid starting option for the Bulls?

While I'll agree that he isn't the worst player in the NBA, like Matt said, he's definately amongst the worst.

by upther on Nov 13, 2007 7:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So it is ok

for "the team's best player" and "the team's best scorer" to have a slow start? If he's the scorer, he's the guy the bulls can least afford to take his time. He's the guy who needs to get the message the most because the team relies on him for scoring the most. And if he isn't scoring, what else is he bringing? Why not bring him off of the bench until he gets his rhythm?

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 13, 2007 11:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

because

I don't believe in any 'message'. He'll get better just because it'll be a return to his normal averages, regardless of whether he starts or not.
It'll take several MONTHS for Gordon to get back in the lineup, message or not.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2007 11:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Where do you get that Kirk has been criticized

for offseason work ethic? Or, for that matter, that he hasn't improved his game "since he got here?"

I'm not arguing that he has played horribly so far this season, but I don't see where those other two points come from.

"They had me do a psychology test and I asked Coach Skiles if that affected his coaching. He laughed and said, `No way.'" (Joakim Noah)

by wjb1492 on Nov 13, 2007 11:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Skiles should study

the tapes of the late 80's Pistons teams...see how Chuck Daly used Vinnie Johnson. Daly put him in for short spells, during which Johnson threw up shots like crazy. Daly couldn't leave him in there too long because the whole team would cease functioning. But for short spells, to kick start the offense, Vinnie/Ben Gordon was/is perfect.

I'm all for making Gordon an instant offense bench player. The problem is that Skiles does not command the same respect that Chuck Daly did, and if Gordon gets sent to the bench in his contract year it will get real ugly real fast.

by alec on Nov 13, 2007 11:26 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

grumble

The problem is the Bulls don't have Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars in front of Ben Gordon on the depth chart.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 13, 2007 11:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not positing

a current-Bulls 88-Pistons analogy. Though one could do it, it would be a big stretch. (Lambier/Gray, Dantly/TT...? It's a stretch.)

by alec on Nov 13, 2007 11:40 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

(Noah/Rodman?)

But the biggest stretch BY FAR would be Isiah/Kirk.

by alec on Nov 13, 2007 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I have no idea

what you're trying to convey. Turning Gordon into Vinnie Johnson is a bad idea because the Bulls don't have better players to start. I don't care about the Pistons, and Gordon's a better player than Johnson.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 13, 2007 11:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks.

I want to make sure I only post about what you want to hear about.

by alec on Nov 13, 2007 12:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't care about Detroit

meaning: the roster comparison wasn't important. Ben Gordon being better than Vinnie Johnson, and no one better than Gordon to start at SG on the Bulls was. I could give a crap how the rest of the roster compares.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 13, 2007 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with you

that Gordon is a better player than Vinnie Johnson. Vinnie was completely one-dimensional. Gordon, I believe, has some skills other than shooting, but he's also too short to effectively defend his position. On top of that , he relly doesn't seem to care too much about playing defense. I don't see him as a starting SG. I'd rather play someone who is more suited to the position. I don't know who that would be on this roster. Deng? He's got the height, but I don't know that he's athletic enough.

by alec on Nov 13, 2007 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You already stated the biggest stretch,

it's Laimbeer/Gray. You compared the most effective player on those Pistons teams to the Bulls 2nd rounder that can't get off the bench. Why? Any other reason besides tall, slow, and white? Thomas was never as good as everybody seems to think he was. He put up some good counting stats on bad teams early in his career and then his two championships gave him cover for all his deficiencies as a player. I wouldn't call Hinrich the better player, but I could make a convincing case that Hinrich is the more effective player.

by Scotter on Nov 13, 2007 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yikes!

I never noticed he only had 3 really good seasons in the mid-80s, and that's about it.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 13, 2007 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Let's see...

could it be...they're both centers?

by alec on Nov 13, 2007 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes the fact they play the same position

is a far more important similarity than the differences between Aaron Gray and a starting center that led the league in rebounding, had 3-point range at center long before even Sam Perkins, a 83.7& career FT%, and a career ToR under 10%.

by Scotter on Nov 13, 2007 12:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe you missed

my question mark. -> "?"

by alec on Nov 13, 2007 12:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Correction "bad" should be replaced

with fast paced. They had win totals in the mid-forties. But were one of the fastest paced teams in the league in those years.

by Scotter on Nov 13, 2007 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

what?

Did you just say Kirk is a more effective player then IThomas?

I hated Det of course being a Bulls fan, but IThomas was a great PG, maybe not known for D but he could score and lead the team

lets not mixed up his horribleness as a manager of Knicks / owner of CBA into his actual basketball play

by NY Chicago Fan on Nov 13, 2007 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It depends on your view

If you're someone that thinks Tiny Archibald was an effective player because he led the league in both scoring and assists or you think Iverson is an effective player because he averages 30 pts/g and gets up when he falls down then you're never going to accept that Thomas wasn't as effective as everyone thinks he was. But, here's the argument.

My comment was more about the gap being so much more ridiculously huge between Laimbeer and Gray than Hinrich and Thomas. Which is why I phrased it the way I did. The argument against Thomas is easy. His PER only topped 19.0 in three years and was only at 17.3 in the championship years. Why's the PER bad? He was an inefficient scorer only topping a 52.8 TS% once his career. He only made 80% of his FTs twice and his TO-r is high for even a PG.

Kirk shoots better and turns it over significantly less without a huge disparity in AS-r. He's also more versatile offensively with his ability to play off the ball. And defensively Kirk has a huge advantage. I'd still be willing to call Thomas the better player, but it's closer than people realize. And someone like Chris Paul is already at least as good as Thomas at his peak.

by Scotter on Nov 13, 2007 12:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Zeke played defense too

Isiah had spurts on defense. He wasn't an All NBA defense caliber player, but he was above average overall.

by NBA Observer on Nov 13, 2007 12:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gordon needs to start, Deng needs to get tougher

I agree that Gordon would make an excellent 6th man. The only problem is, he is our only legit scorer or shooting guard, one of our 2 or 3 best players and has been playing better than Deng, Wallace and Hinrich, 3 of the other 5 starters. So of course, bench him. Because that is Skiles only trick.

You want to play Deng at the 2? He can't handle the ball and can't shoot from 3. He doesn't attack his man and relies completely on mid range jump shots. He needs Gordon, Hinrich and Duhon to create for him. At the end of the year we know the starting 5 (barring trade) will be Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Thomas and Wallace. Why play games with the lineup.

Every year Gordon starts slowly. Every year! And every year we have to through this same crap. We pull him for 20 games, he starts playing better, the 2nd unit suddently becomes much better than the first unit, Gordon is put back in the starting line-up and we all go Skiles is a genuis. I don't see how this motivates anyone. Hinrich knows no matter how terrible he plays, he will start. Same with Deng.

Gordon at least has reason to start slowly - he was injured during preseason. Hinrich and Deng have no such excuse. They just have been terrible.

I don't care about +/- ratios (a highly dubious stat in basketball), I care about what I see. Starting Noc would mean we just have a chucker out there (a guy who shot a 3 with 23 seconds on the shot clock in the 4th quarter with 2 min left). Gordon is a better shooter and can score in more ways on the floor. If benching Gordon is to get Deng going, than I don't understand. Deng is obviously option 1a or 1b. He gets opportunities. His inability to show up right now is his own.

The guys who are playing the worse - Hinrich, Wallace and Deng - don't ever get punished by Skiles.

Deng is playing like absolute crap. I've lost faith in him. He doesn't seem to have the toughness to lead a team. I'm actually exacerbated by the entire group. Why is an inactive player calling a team meeting? Where are team "leaders" and captains Hinrich, Deng and Wallace. Where is Gordon?

I think they will turn it around. But I don't know if they have the toughness to compete against the best in a 7 game series.

by danger mouse on Nov 13, 2007 11:49 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

+/- ratios?

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 13, 2007 11:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Actually

Hinrich's left hand is banged up and Deng did sit out games in the preseason with a wrist injury.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 13, 2007 11:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gordon's injury

It was a silly ankle sprain. When did this injury become an excuse to play nearly 4 weeks after the injury occurred?

A bad ankle doesn't make your hands turn into butter. BG is turning the ball over with his hands. He's turning it over late in the 4th quarter in close games. If he's going to be the primary scorer than he need to be able to create his own shot off the dribble. If he has to be set up off screens to create shot opps, then he's a huge net loser in efficiency. He plays almost no defense. He cannot guard anyone. He can't rebound well. If his offense has to be set up by other players than it's a complete waste of time to even have him out there.

He makes a shot. He gives up a basket. It's pointless to play a guy that scores if he gives all those points back on defense.

by NBA Observer on Nov 13, 2007 12:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

casual observer

"He makes a shot. He gives up a basket."

+/- tells us Gordon makes enough shots, and plays adequate enough defense to be much better than a break even or worse player you described.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 13, 2007 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Turnovers

Turnovers that lead to fast break points are the responsibility of the player turning the ball over.

BG doesn't just give up points the man guarding him. He's also giving them up when he turnovers are converted into transition buckets.

by NBA Observer on Nov 13, 2007 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

thanks for explaining

what a turnover is. I'd be lost without you!

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 13, 2007 1:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

new term

Call it the "BG Turnover". It's not a typical turnover. This one is worse. Not only is the balled turned over to the other team, but the player that did it, BG, is on the floor creating an immediate man advantage for the opponent.

4 to 5 of these per game is an almost guaranteed -8 point deficit just by having BG in the lineup.

by NBA Observer on Nov 13, 2007 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Great now we have

imaginary stats. Gordon playing like crap is still only averaging 3 TOs in his 36 min/g. Not great, but not enough to sink a team. And if your going to create imaginary numbers don't do it for stats that really do exist and have real numbers that are the product of what happened in the real world.

by Scotter on Nov 13, 2007 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Except

Except, BG's turnovers have come at crucial times in close games. 6 at NJ. 4 against Philly.

Ben can turn the ball over 3 times a game, but he must score his average plus at least 6 to make up for the turnovers. When it's 6 TOs, he needs to be +12 on his scoring average.

The way BG is shooting right now, his turnovers become even more costly because the team must generate so many more possessions for him to get his shots.

by NBA Observer on Nov 13, 2007 4:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

if you're

gonna try to make a point, don't just make up stats out of thin air...calling something a "BG Turnover" is pretty much idiotic....as if any turnover is good compared to the ones that Ben has....gimme a break and go back to whatever message board/blog you came from

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 13, 2007 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Unless my math skills

escape me, the special catagory, "BG Turnover" doesn't even add anything in terms of specificity. If BG turns it over and that turnover leads to an opponent's basket, Ben gets 1)a turnover and 2) a minus 2 on his +/-.

by alec on Nov 13, 2007 3:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

As opposed

to players who dont make shots but give up points. Gordon is avg 20 ppg, i dont think he gives up 20 ppg...

by tyrus4prez on Nov 13, 2007 4:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

more to it

Judging defense is much more than simply asking how many points were scored by the players BG was guarding. For example, he guarded Jason Kidd in the NJN game. Jason doesn't score. But Jason creates scoring. It's up to Ben to make that process for Jason more difficult.

In the Philly game BG guards Willie Green. Willie is an outside shooter with an above average penetration game. He relies on getting to the free throw line to boost his scoring into double figures.

BG is 10% points lower in FG% and 3PT%. If he was half this the Bulls would likely have at least 3 wins.

by NBA Observer on Nov 13, 2007 4:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

<B>?</B>

Maybe the SB Nation Bots will respond better to html, and emoticons.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 13, 2007 4:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I know the starting shakeup makes no sense but...

oddly it does seem to work with this club.

We seem to bench Gordon for a few weeks and then the other guys (Kirk and Luol) get their mojo going and Gordon comes in off the bench and compliments them....

Then after a few weeks these guys remember how to play team ball and Gordon gets brought back in as a starter.

I just don't want to see Duhon as a starter. Hell since Thabo ain't giving us anything I'd try Gardner there.....

We can try the Deng at SG, but I'm not sure that's the option yet because I don't know if Deng's quick enough to guard the quick guards yet.

Although I do like the looks of a Kirk-Deng-Noc-Thomas-Smith starting lineup.

If Wallace is back, that's even more ideal, but Big Ben deserves very limited time right now because he's only playing like he typically does for 5-6 minute stretches.

I know Joe Smith's had a history of injuries, but I think we should go to him right now at least and inactivate Big Ben a few days.....it's not a permanent change.

by majoyenrac on Nov 13, 2007 12:27 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I don't think it 'works'

They do win after the change, but it doesn't mean they win because of the change.

Didn't they lose 6 straight after the switch last year?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2007 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You remember more than me...

It seems at least the change might get the other 3 offensive guys (and Big Ben) a chance to play some more team ball and not be so one-dimensional in the 4th quarter (though I'm still a Gordon fan, so what do I know).

I know I hate this team right now and I was ridiculously happy about our chances out the gate. I think we'll bounce back, but I'm so tired of these bad starts (and the last game was the worst we've looked in the Paxson era).

by majoyenrac on Nov 13, 2007 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

stay pat please

After thinking about everything I think the Bulls really need to stay pat. Kirk, Ben, Deng, Thomas, Wallace all need to start when healthy. This is the team that was built and needs to be given chance to win as they are the best Bulls have. Noc, Duhon, Thabo, Smith, Noah all need to come off bench and provide in the roles the Bulls need.

Every player in NBA has their own stregthens and weaknesses, but Bulls need to play the guys who give them best chance to win east conf championships in playoffs. Need to look at big picture, if the starting five can't win then they can't win, but there is already plenty of evidence this is best starting lineup Bulls have so you have to go down fighting

Messing with this team means throwing out all the progress and building up for the last few years. If you are going to blow up team, then do it after season. Don't give up this season after so few games

by NY Chicago Fan on Nov 13, 2007 12:36 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

addition

I know the starting 5 hasn't been playing well, I want to stress that there lies the problem. They are the best Bulls players, they need to produce. If they don't then the Bulls aren't going to win in playoffs.

Example:
Duhon playing well might be better then Gordon playing poorly. But who cares, because Duhon playing well is not better then Gordon playing well and Bulls need each player to be playing well to win win eastern conference. So putting Duhon in for Gordon doesn't solve anything, only changing Gordon from poorly to well solves it

(I know someone of you are going to think I'm crazy, I think I just made Bulls probelm into a math problem, lol)

by NY Chicago Fan on Nov 13, 2007 12:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wake up

You have to wake up to the fact that Ben Gordon is slightly worse than Cedric Ceballos. They'll put up enough points in a season to get to 20ppg, but you're team won't have wins to show for it. They're just not consistent scorers. And when they can't get the jumper to fall, neither could get to the free throw line.

BG apparently worked on balance and speed in the offseason. Really? He still flops all over the place on offense. He doesn't seem any quicker this season. His shots are consistently short. Maybe he should have done strength training instead. He looks like a damn ragdoll out there.

by NBA Observer on Nov 13, 2007 12:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

missed my point

I'm not defending or commenting on how "good" Gordon is. My point was Gordon is best SG the Bulls have so he should start.

If you think Duhon or Griffin or Thabo is better SG then Gordon then you can start them

by NY Chicago Fan on Nov 13, 2007 5:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know that you can fairly neglect

to mention Deng in this group. After all, he's the alternative Skiles has been pumping up since camp began.

by alec on Nov 13, 2007 5:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Deng not SG

So you think Deng is a better SG then Gordon? Deng has never proven he can dribble, shoot 3s (yes Bulls need someone able to shoot 3s otherwise their offense will stink worse) or defend guards.

If it is worth pulling Deng out of his natural position to replace Gordon then Bulls better not sign Ben and that was sure one waste of a draft pick.

by NY Chicago Fan on Nov 13, 2007 5:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're not going to get

an argument from me.

by alec on Nov 13, 2007 6:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ben Wallace isn't the problem

Ben Wallace isn't the problem with the Bulls. You might not like his stat line, but the real problems on defense stem from the perimeter defenders tasked with guarding the pick and roll and pick and pop offense that is being thrown at the Bulls.

Chicago was blown out at home by Toronto playing the same pick and roll offense for the entire second half. Delfino, Parker, and Kapono all hit shots, but they were the second pass off the screen and roll. These players were wide open because their defender left them to close out on the wide open Bargnani. They're offensive position was the result of bad perimeter defense from the Bulls.

Jose Calderon can't shoot from three point land. So why the hell would you follow him off a screen as he's dribbling to the sideline nearly 40 feet from the basket? That's what Kirk Hinrich did all night. Calderon has to bait his defender by pulling them away from the basket to create the passing lanes that allow Toronto to get wide open looks. You can lay some blame on the Bulls scouting for this. Skiles should be riding Hinrich hard for his god awful defense on the screen and roll.
If Ben Gordon doesn't make shots and turns the ball over before he even gets to put up a shot, he's a huge negative. He's a scorer that plays little to no defense. He must outscore his opposing shooting guard or he is a net negative in points accumulation. So when he is missing shots AND giving up buckets, you have to bench him.
The Suns run almost the same system as the Raptors. Either the Bulls correct their awful screen and roll defense or the Suns will win by 50. Nash will have a field day drawing Chicago guards out 40 feet from the basket.

by NBA Observer on Nov 13, 2007 12:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I think Skiles should allow

the starters to play their way out of the slump.

If they don't, make roster changes.

Specifically, trade the guards (assuming you can get scoring in return). If Gordon demonstrates over the first 20-30 games of the season that he can't overcome his physical deficiencies, get rid of him.

SUCK IT SABAN!

by 1958ChiTown on Nov 13, 2007 12:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Maybe he can grow

really fast.

by alec on Nov 13, 2007 12:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

In light of all the angst and vitriol...

...That was pretty funny. I needed that.

Wrecked 'em? Damn near killed 'em!

by mdmnd9294 on Nov 13, 2007 2:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No it wasn't, god DAMMIT!!!

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Nov 13, 2007 2:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're right.

It's not funny. It's sad and pathetic.

by alec on Nov 13, 2007 3:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sign Marbury!

He's just what we need -- a scoring point guard!!

Sorry -- when do the Bulls next play again?

My favorite metric of a team's quality is the often underappreciated "win/loss record"

by preverbal on Nov 13, 2007 10:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Marbury's

one of the strangest guys in the nba. On the one hand, he displays a more than commendable social conscience with his shoe deal...and on the other, he comes across as one of the most me-first players in the whole league. He does, however, have point guard skills way in excess of Hinrich's.

by alec on Nov 13, 2007 11:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Marbury

I do admire the Starbury shoe line, but the guy is a total head-case. He is a me-first player, and he is the ultimate loser. As a New York resident, I have seen enough of him to put him on my "Top 10 Guys I Wouldn't Want on My Team" list.

Honestly, he should get bought out and check into a mental hospital, but not before dishing his dirt on Isiah, which could be riveting stuff.

My favorite metric of a team's quality is the often underappreciated "win/loss record"

by preverbal on Nov 14, 2007 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I didn't really know much about

Maurbarry I just new he wasn't the kinda player you wana build a team around. After he said what he said in regaurds to the Michael Vick case I think the dude should be sent into outer space.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 15, 2007 12:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs