Contract countdown

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 29, 2007 12:18 AM CDT in News Comment 62 comments

The Bulls have until Wednesday to sign Gordon and Deng to contract extensions. If not, they will be restricted FAs the following summer.

I've wavered off of my "just sign them already, you paid Nocioni for chrissakes" stance the past few weeks. There really is no rush to sign either player unless it's for a discount, and that's apparently what Pax has been trying to achieve. If each wind up having fantastic seasons and cost the Bulls more money (and an additional year) in restricted free agency, that's a good problem to have, especially considering a bidding war is far from guaranteed given the paucity of teams that will be under the cap next offseason. I don't fear that the lack of a contract will be distracting (let alone insulting) for either player.

So Pax is using 'security' as leverage to have them take a deal now, but another motivation may now be this Kobe Bryant business.

If Deng or Gordon sign an extension before Wednesday, it effectively puts them out of any Kobe trade package, and therefore likely puts the Bulls out of the running. Whether or not the discussion is "hot and heavy" (quick comment on that: I, as a rule, rarely believe Chris Sheridan), by all accounts Paxson is at least somewhat interested in acquiring Kobe, and knows that any extensions may kill the possibility. So from his standpoint the team better be making a heck of a deal with Deng&Gordon to get an extension signed now. Otherwise it makes little sense for the team not to just wait, let their players raise their value, let the Lakers asking price diminish, and resume talks midseason or even next summer. Or never.

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This whole parties out of control!

I can't what the hell this is the weirdest time to be a Bulls fan!

''This whole parties out of control!''-Moose

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Oct 29, 2007 12:32 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I was thinking along the same lines

That Gordon should be reminded that simply by signing a contract, he can effectively insure that he's out of the trade talks. I'm really hoping they both sign so this thing ends.

by Scotter on Oct 29, 2007 12:55 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I picture Pax

touching his fingertips together and mumbling "Excellent", ala C Monty Burns...

by marionette on Oct 29, 2007 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Priority: Deng First then Gordon

I will be so relieved when they finally sign a long term extension with Deng.

For Gordon,
I really think hes going improve this year yet Paxson should try to get a discount out of him.

I believe Deng has more potential to contribute in the long-run than Gordon.

by AngryAsianAce on Oct 29, 2007 5:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Extension nixes trade?

Am I missing something?

Why would a Gordon (or Deng) extension kill his involvement in a Kobe deal?

First off we need to package enough salary under the 125%/100K rule to make a Kobe deal work under the CBA.
If L.A.'s not willing to part with Kobe unless there's substantial young assets coming in return, I'd think they'd rather BG (or Deng) to be locked up for a few years.
We've acknowledged that Pax shouldn't sign them prior to Wednesday unless it's at a discount. Wouldn't the Lakers be even more interested in a "discounted" young asset than an asset ready to test FA waters after a year in L.A.?

Granted, this theory goes out the window once we overpay for BG (or Deng).

I just wonder what I'm missing... Why would signing these guys at a discount effectively remove them from a Kobe deal?

by bpa on Oct 29, 2007 8:10 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

whoops....

Digesting the Base Year Compensation stuff, bear with me...

In the meantime, disregard my previous post.

by bpa on Oct 29, 2007 8:11 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

it's not easy

being an expert on the CBA and being a fan. :)

by KT on Oct 29, 2007 8:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

see:

mariotti, Jay
Walton, Bill
any other commentator ever

by milesgmsu on Oct 29, 2007 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

the base-year stuff is complicated

For the most part I just take the lead of the beat writers and say 'long story short, it's nearly impossible' to deal a player as a poison pill or base-year player.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 29, 2007 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So what are the ramifications of the extensions?

Is it like the noc deal where they cant be traded until a date or is their cap number just higher than it should be. If it is just their cap number being larger than what they actually make it would take a third team with cap room to spare to make the deal work I think.

by haze on Oct 29, 2007 8:55 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

ramifications

Until June 30, 2008, from Chicago's standpoint, the salary used for purposes of the 125%/100K rule would be 50% of the "new contract" salary or the former salary - whichever is greater.

by bpa on Oct 29, 2007 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

also...

I think it's a bit worse than this actually. I may be wrong, but from what I understand from reading the CBA trade restriction blurbs on ESPN.com (admittedly not the authority), those numbers just count as the outgoing salary. The incoming salary for the team that aquires the base year compensation player is the full "new contract" salary, such that it is only possible to trade those players to a team that is under the cap. Also... I think it might last longer than June 30, 2008 (?). For example on the ESPN trade machine (again I'm not sure how accurate that is) Kirk is still listed today as a base year compensation player. It may be a full year from the signing date.

by micah on Oct 29, 2007 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

contract stuff

So it is especially difficult for the next year if they sign the extensions because their salary would be 12$ but their trade value would be around 14 million. So that means we could trade BG making 12 for another player making 14 but we couldn't do that deal because we couldnt afford to take on the extra 2 million in the trade. This would mean we need a third team with cap room to make this work at all right?

--excuse me while my head explodes

by haze on Oct 29, 2007 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

someone should be brave

and email Irwin Mandel. I bet his email is imandel@bulls.com.

by KT on Oct 29, 2007 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah...

A team can't take on more than 125% of the salary their sending out, plus $100,000.

So, you're right, the 50% of the new salary (unless his previous salary was higher) counts for purposes of Chicago's "outgoing" salary - that's why I used the "from Chicago's standpoint" language.

Also, a player remains a base year player for 6 months or June 30, whichever happens later - in this case, June 30, 2008.

The "Traded Player Exception" allows teams above the cap to trade as long as they take on no more than 125% plus $100k of the salary they'd receive in the trade. The "BYC" designation is a wrinkle used to plug a loophole in the "traded player exception." The fact that a player's tabbed as a BYC player does not prohibit him from being dealt to a team under the cap.

by bpa on Oct 30, 2007 8:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is't the opposite..

It would be the opposite of over valued in that it wouldn't count as much. Assuming BG signs a deal that averages about $12mil a year, for trade purposes his contract counts at $6mil. Still making it hard to match within that small margin of what Kobe makes.

by CubFan81 on Oct 29, 2007 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can see

getting Lu signed but I don't think Pax and BG will agree on BG's self worth. I'd love to see both signed but not counting on it.

Racecar spelled backwards is racecar.

by sue369 on Oct 29, 2007 9:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

We need a full-time accountant

to figure out the salary stuff. What does CBA stand for?

by chgobr on Oct 29, 2007 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Collective Bargaining Agreement

or...Continental Basketball Association :-)

by ScottieCartwright on Oct 29, 2007 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

or

Christian Booksellers Association
Canadian Bar Association
Consumer Bankers Association
California Bluegrass Association

and so on . . .

http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-&p=CBA%20association

Time Warner Cable: The Place to Be, if you want to see no preseason games even after paying for League Pass.

by preverbal on Oct 29, 2007 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pax has a lawyer to help him

Irwin Mandel, probably the league expert in Salary cap issues.

He's also the guy who thought of the pick swap in the Curry trade to New York.

by KT on Oct 29, 2007 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Curry trade to New York

When I saw these words, it made me think back just two short years ago...

Considering how EC has evolved into the powerful center that he is and his heart issue never materializing, I STILL wonder sometimes what this team would be like right now if the Curry/Tyson tandem were still in the paint together....?

I'm not saying they haven't done well with what they have now, but if one could look through a "crystal ball" I wonder what they'd see...

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Oct 29, 2007 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You do realize

that Curry still stinks at basketball?

by Scotter on Oct 29, 2007 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

my fave new metric

had Duhon outperforming Eddy last season.

by hscs on Oct 29, 2007 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do we owe the new-look Celtics some respect?

Or is Rando still going to be a favorite whipping boy with the C's stars overrated?

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Oct 29, 2007 9:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I never said

GAP was overrated, and Rondo's high ranking was a result of limited minutes. I'm not saying he didn't play well last season either. He's still not likely to keep that up, and he won't have the ball nearly as much.

by hscs on Oct 29, 2007 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not a stat dweller

and I'm referring to last year as EC is apparently dealing with a shoulder injury right now.
Curry did have what looked like a decent last season, and just about everytime I flipped over to a Knicks game he was solid - banging hard with the best of centers. And he ended up with an average of 19.5 PPG and 7 RPG for the season.

I don't remember Duhon having that kind of success last year - in fact just about all we've seen here is a lot of people flaming his lack of performance.
And Du's been a Bull for several years now while Curry last season was only in his second year as a knick.

In any case, I certainly wouldn't consider EC a lousy player.

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Oct 29, 2007 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

maybe read the explanation

by hscs on Oct 29, 2007 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yep. My bad.

I was very tired. Still, it's more probable that he was that good than not.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Oct 30, 2007 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Replied to the wrong thing.

Anyway, thanks for showing that statistic.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Oct 30, 2007 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

When you're a turnover machine,

lead the league in offensive fouls, and play zero defense despite being 6'11", it adds up to a lousy player no matter how many points are scored.

by Scotter on Oct 29, 2007 11:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

a lousy player no matter how many points are score

Uh...okay...

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Oct 30, 2007 12:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

don't be a doof

You don't have to be a "stat dweller" (whatever that is), but not knowing about something isn't a good reason to disagree with it. Save that for the message boards.

by hscs on Oct 30, 2007 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I disagree

And just because I disagree with you does not mean that you need to resort to name calling.

I know plenty, thank you, and you are not the know it all that you portray yourself to be.

But regardless of who's right or wrong, forcing your point of view on someone and being mean doesn't solve or prove anything.

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Oct 30, 2007 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not discrediting you

I'm saying that you can't disagree with or invalidate something because you're opposed to stats in general, and have no idea what sbulls was conveying by pointing out Eddy's only merit. If there's a fundamental difference with your thinking, debating the finer points isn't worth it.

I really don't care that you "know plenty". I wouldn't be here if I wasn't interested in what others thought, and I don't claim to be an expert. Fact is Curry is only productive in one area, and that hurts the Knicks more than it helps.

by hscs on Oct 30, 2007 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

When you put it like this

I hear you a LOT better and would tend to agree with most of it.

And I'm not opposed to stats - I just meant that I don't live and die by them, and I apologize if that was misunderstood.
Obviously I look at stats - I certainly didn't pull EC's numbers out of thin air.

And FWIW - you did jump right in and mention your "fave new metric" about Duhon and Curry.
To me, THAT is stat dwelling.
But that's just my opinion, and you do whatever suits you and that's fine.

What I was simply saying from the start was that Curry was better now than he was with the Bulls (and should be), regardless of what his turnover and other negative stats are.

They like him in NY (not saying much), and he's scoring more and more every year with a career high 36 pts in a game last season.
And he's still learning and growing - heck, even Hinrich, BG and even Wallace have HORRIBLE nights still - and we've all seen and moaned about it. Like when we jump out to 18 pt. leads, only to blow the game - TWICE in one week no less (Did I mention that I loathe NJ?).

Why else would there be all these possible trade talks?

In the end - if Curry was just a "lousy" player as it was put, I doubt he'd be starting and be a large part of what they're building in NY.

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Oct 30, 2007 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I still have no idea what stat dwelling is

Adjusted +/- isn't new as much as people have been waiting for it to escape the more exclusive spreadsheets. It accounts for everything that happens in a game, although one season of data isn't enough to say Duhon is more productive than Curry. I was being facetious, but there is plenty to take from the rankings. They certainly expose what a flawed and lousy player Curry is. It's obvious he's been a large part of how poorly the Knicks have played since he was traded there.

Per game averages really don't say anything about a player's worth or impact. Eddy's most prolific scoring season was actually his final season as a Bull. When you see a mention of stats here, it's likely in reference to per minute or per possession metrics.

by hscs on Oct 30, 2007 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Eddy should be an ALL-STAR!!

:-)

by ScottieCartwright on Oct 30, 2007 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

When you mention EC's best year was as a Bull

but yet he still continues to improve as a scorer in NY....
One could debate that the NY coaching (or lack of it) is a contributor to some of the issues there with him.

Not all good players do well in all situations.
And I just believe that he has talent is all.

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Oct 30, 2007 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

never said that

I said it was his most prolific scoring season; he had a career high FGA/40, and PTS/40. His shot rate has gone down, and his TS% has gone up since then. He's become more efficient, but scores slightly less. The major contributor to his career high points per game average last season was more minutes. That's probably due to a lowered foul rate, and Isiah not caring about having a horrendous defender who turns the ball over and can't rebound at center.

Scoring ability like Eddy's is a rare talent for a big man, but it's been 6 seasons of scoring ability and absolutely nothing else. It's not likely that he'll ever overcome his flaws.

by hscs on Oct 30, 2007 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Scoring ability like Eddy's is a rare talent

and scoring at center is something the Bulls (sadly) haven't really had since he left which is why I originally brought him up...He and Tyson working well TOGETHER.

But I hear ya about the higher minutes played, and that stat getting lost in the PPG average going up.

Thank you for taking the time with this. :-)

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Oct 30, 2007 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't live and die by stats either

It sure does help to use facts to discuss the game though.

I can't explain the origin of Bulls trade rumors, but I imagine it has plenty to do with other teams valuing the talent on the Chicago roster.

by hscs on Oct 30, 2007 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dont Forget

Curry can block shots for shit.
and He is trash.

by AngryAsianAce on Oct 30, 2007 1:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was happy to see someone publish

adjusted +/-. I'd really like to see Dan Rosenbaum's numbers, but unfortunately that knowledge is wasted on Danny Ferry.

by Scotter on Oct 29, 2007 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

not as much press panic

as I expected, but K--e mania puts too big a dent in the columnists' word count to have room for the Deng and Gordon Extension Apocalypse.

No reason to worry about today or Tuesday. If anything gets signed it will likely be at the deadline. Hinrich negotiations worked out that way, and Skiles had some fake 36 hour deadline.

by hscs on Oct 29, 2007 10:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The fact that Deng

is goin to have a sit down with Pax, shows that something will probably get Deng. I think Ben ain't gettin an extention for possible trades

by Option27 on Oct 29, 2007 11:17 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Ther are so many free agents

next year, and the markets getting tighter anyway...so I don't think BG would get a bigger offer than $12M. He's restricted too, so unless a Joe Johnson type situation develops with the Bull FO, it should be safe to wait.

I like him signing to kill off the Kobe thing, but worry that would really do it. Seems to me, if the Lakers thought it (BG's new deal) was good, they could still make it happen.

by marionette on Oct 29, 2007 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Anybody know what the final roster looks like?

by hhi on Oct 29, 2007 6:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Can't Wait For Tip Off Time

Hi There,

Its been a long time that I'm craving for a good quality NBA game and the wait is almost over.

looking to see how Chapu NOCIONI will fare this season for the Bulls.

Just incase please check out this link about 6 aces from South America

http://mundoalbiceleste.blogspot.com/2007/10/tip-off-time-for-six-aces.html

Vamos Bulls

by sivanjohn on Oct 29, 2007 6:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Comcast

According to them, Deng was meeting with Paxson today, and Gordon already did a few days ago. They gave a slightly different read of it than the Tribune did.

by nas on Oct 29, 2007 6:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I saw that too.

I guess the next two days will be telling.

Racecar spelled backwards is racecar.

by sue369 on Oct 29, 2007 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Selfish

is a good way to describe Kobe, which should be a warning light of concern in the heads of Bulls upper echelon and fans alike.

While he is possibly the best player in the NBA right now, it is also clear that the big $$ just isn't enough anymore for him, and the glory days of championships are a distant memory now with him not being the popularity show in LA that he used to be.

Kobe Bryant likely chooses Chicago because:

A. First and foremost, it's the team where his mentor, top foe that he never COULD beat(and who knows...maybe even IDOL?) MJ grew up and then destroyed team after team, setting a bar that has not been surpassed since, and KB might have dillusions of establishing himself as the NEW "King" in Chicago.

B. He wants to win a championship in a town other than LA so he doesn't have to be reminded of his ex-buddy Shaq's trophy success in multiple towns while he's still stuck in LA as a whiner.

C. He knows there aren't any other big market teams that are in the position to trade for him and still be intact enough to win it all.

D. Whatever other reasons that I'm sure we can all imagine for him serving himself and ego by wanting to come to Chicago.

Kobe Bryant IS an awesome player - no doubt.

But even though he is a great player, it does NOT mean that his ego and selfishness will be welcomed by his new team mates, let alone Skiles, the coaches and the fans.

And Skiles is NOT Phil Jackson, and it took Jackson coming to LA to handle the Kobe / Shaq show before a Championship could be won.
And it should concern us all that if Kobe happens to get on Skiles and/or his players' negative side, it could very well blow everything up before anything good can begin and totally destroy everything the Bulls have worked so hard to accomplish over the last few years.

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Oct 29, 2007 8:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I concur

by AngryAsianAce on Oct 30, 2007 1:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Me too.

Couldn't agree more.

Racecar spelled backwards is racecar.

by sue369 on Oct 30, 2007 6:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

update

on the contract talks

Why does it always sound like BG is the villian in this but Lu is the good guy?? Maybe it's just me...

by ScottieCartwright on Oct 29, 2007 10:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

that's 'cause Deng is out

saving manatees. :)

I don't think Gordon comes off bad in this article, and good for him for giving some insight into his situation.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 29, 2007 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't agree

with his self assessment that he is the Bulls best player. He is the Bulls best shooter but I don't consider him the best player.

Racecar spelled backwards is racecar.

by sue369 on Oct 30, 2007 6:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

thought the same thing 'til

i read the daily herald article from the "Bulls Newsfeed" over to the left. In that, Ben said he thinks he is the best and he's sure "Lu does too". That's a fine thing to say even in the cryptic waltz that is sports salary negotiations.

"...Keeping 'SlowHand' alive since aught-five"

by CookDing on Oct 30, 2007 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I read this

as BG saying that Lu thinks Lu is also the best player on the team not that Lu thinks BG is the best player on the team. It came across that way in the interview he did at the Berto Center yesterday anyway. Is that what you meant too?

Racecar spelled backwards is racecar.

by sue369 on Oct 30, 2007 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yes

"...Keeping 'SlowHand' alive since aught-five"

by CookDing on Oct 30, 2007 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ben might be misquoted a bit...

The Trib noted that Ben thought Lu was one of the best also, but Brian Hanley's article today (sorry, I can't get the link to work) left that part out. Which is a shame: someone on fanhouse quoted that version, and now it's been picked up as a Tuesday bullet on True Hoop.

It's too bad, b/c it could spread something about Ben that's a little misleading.

by T Maple on Oct 30, 2007 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs