Recent Free Agent Signings and Trades... Open Discussion...

by leeac on Jul 31, 2006 9:11 PM CDT

Several topics:

So the Trailblazers pick up Jamaal Magloire for 3 scrubs today... a potential low level All Star caliber PF/C for a handful of, well, nothing. The bucks get MAYBE a decent backup in Steve Blake. Makes me wonder if a Duhon plus a Schensher and change could have made this one happen for the Bulls. Don't get me wrong, I think we'll do fine with the PJ Brown, Wallace, Allen combo, but Magloire would have been a nice complimentary veteran widebody in the middle...
Knicks let Jackie Butler go to the Spurs for 3/7?... 3/7????? wtf? and then signs restricted Jared Jeffries to a 5/30???? Just when you think that he might turn this thing around, he just kicks himself in the nuts. Not to rip on our AG, but I would prefer to have a Jackie Butler for 3/7... 3/7 is like those mcdonald's special wednesdays when you can buy burgers for $0.29 each... you have to buy 10 of them... we should have taken a flyer on Jackie Butler... hold the pickles.
Did the Cubs really just trade away Maddux again?

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funniest post ever

cubs and mcdonalds and knicks....three pretty pathetic teams...haha mcdonalds special

serisosuly, im glad we dindt get magloire, best days are behind him, and i think that was a freak year. Plus, Mil would never have let him go in division, and with duhon we wouldnt need to throw in schenser since they need a PG.....but they would ge the better end of that deal....good job holding the trigger pax

by milesgmsu on Jul 31, 2006 9:25 PM CDT reply actions

I disagree... with everything

Jamaal Magloire is awful. According to 82games.com he posted a 12.0 PER at the center position last year. To put that in perspective, 15.0 is the league average, and Malik Allen had a 12.8 PER at center.
Remember, Jackie Butler was behind JEROME JAMES on the Knicks depth chart.
Can you believe people still follow the Cubs?

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Jul 31, 2006 9:37 PM CDT reply actions

bad link

Sorry.

Jamaal Magloire@82games.com

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Jul 31, 2006 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions

pax...

...always skewing the numbers!

...why can't you show the me "clog the middle with big ass" statistics?...

by leeac on Jul 31, 2006 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions

because

without Robert Traylor and Jahidi White it just isn't any fun.

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Jul 31, 2006 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions

Scouting on Magloire

TrueHoop just did some intense video scouting of Magloire and came away agahst at how bad his offensive skills are. He throws out a Ben Wallace comparison, yikes:

http://www.truehoop.com/free-agents-and-trades-32766-whats-wrong-with-jamaal-magloire.html

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 1, 2006 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions

i disagree...

2. i don't think that anyone can technically be behind jerome james on the depth chart... that would be like being behind janero pargo on the depth chart...

by leeac on Jul 31, 2006 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions

Butler

Butler was 20 years old, signed from the minor leagues (I believe the CBA), and making next-to-nothing. James was their big free agent aquisition, making the full mid-level, and a veteran.

So knowing that, I have to believe that James was given every opportunity to play to start the year, and it's a testament to how much better Butler was last season that he did go above him in the depth chart. Butler may have never started, but James started 1 game after December.

Here's their minutes/game and games played by month. You can see the trend.

James mpg(G)---Butler mpg(G)
6.0 (3) --- 7.8 (9) November
11.6 (11) --- 11.5 (8) December
6.5 (8) --- 11.6 (5) January
7.5 (6) --- 14.3 (8) February
10.2 (12) --- 12.5 (14) March
8.2 (5) --- 21.0 (11) April

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 31, 2006 11:59 PM CDT up reply actions

AND

PaxJax,

Why did you use PER to point out Magloire's deficiencies (and I agree he's not very good), and then dismiss Butler as somehow worse than Jerome James, despite evidence to the contrary, just because he was 'behind him in the depth chart' (which wasn't even true).

See...this is why you're labled an instigator! :)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 1, 2006 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions

I looked up the minutes

after I posted. Considering he was labeled as the Knicks 3rd string center in a variety of articles regarding the restricted free agent, I didn't feel that research was needed. I haven't seen the guy play more than a few minutes, but as crazy as Zeke is, and Larry Brown was, Jackie Butler probably wasn't ready to handle serious minutes (if he's ever ready). The MP doesn't tell the whole story, as Jerome James couldn't stay healthy last year, had off-court disputes with Larry Brown, and Butler was given more minutes as the season went down the drain as the Knicks were looking to evaluate the back end of the roster.

"Butler is their third-string center, but is viewed as valuable in case Jerome James were to report out of shape."

"Remaining in New York, he would play after Eddy Curry and Jerome James, (unless James is traded until then) although he is considered better and played more minutes under Brown than Jerome."

"The Knicks lost their insurance policy at center when projected third-stringer Jackie Butler signed with the Spurs. Curry and James both carry huge contracts to match their big bodies and James is actually going to have to play this season, backing up Curry."

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Aug 1, 2006 1:14 AM CDT up reply actions

since I personally am a stickler for links

nba.com has the monthly splits:

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jerome_james/season_splits.html

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jackie_butler/season_splits.html

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 1, 2006 12:05 AM CDT up reply actions

I trust in Pax

Frankly, I would have been happy with either Butler or Magloire joining the squad this year. In fact, I have advocated picking each of them up at various times. But, I ain't Pax, so I ain't bitchin'.

by preverbal on Jul 31, 2006 11:22 PM CDT reply actions

I CRIED

when i heard maddux got traded for CESAR ISTURES (sp) HES BATTIN 252, and hes probably just as good as cedeno, plus we give away walker for a minor leager, so we have neifi, cedeno and isturis fightin it out for second and short. um they all suck btw. i went to the game tonite (15-4) the place was completly full at the start and by the 7th no1 was there. hmmmmmmmm

by the great zambino on Jul 31, 2006 11:56 PM CDT reply actions

izturis

ill clarify by saying im not a cubs fan....mariners all the way

we were at the dodgers game on friday, and izturis has only played ina few games this year...and he clobberded the ball and made some nice plays...

i still dont get why u threw in cash though

by milesgmsu on Aug 1, 2006 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions

Settling this

and it sickens me to discuss the Cubs.

Cesar Izturis career OPS+ 69
Ozzie Guillen career OPS+ 69

For those of you who don't know what OPS+ is, it's On Base plus Slugging measured against the league average OPS for that year/years, and adjusted for park factors. 100 is average, and Frank Thomas' career OPS+ is 161.

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Aug 1, 2006 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions

if it sickens you

then don't do it.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 1, 2006 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions

;) is that better?

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Aug 1, 2006 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions

eh

I guess I see your point, it sickened me to be looking up Jerome James' game logs last night but I did it anyway.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 1, 2006 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions

its not that bad

of a trade, considering how maddux is performing this season(save the first month). his ERA for May, June, and July are 5.94, 6.25, and 5.21 respectively. its true that he hasnt gotten much run support, but it's not like we just gave away the maddux from the mid-90s... we gave away the 40 year old location pitcher

WE ARE... PENN STATE

by NittanyBull on Aug 1, 2006 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions

actually it is

Maddux 2005 WARP (wins above replacement player) 5.8
Izturis 2005 WARP 3.1

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Aug 1, 2006 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions

it's 2006

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 1, 2006 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions

I don't have a baseball prospectus scrib

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Aug 1, 2006 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions

and

Maddux's overall pitching stats are slightly higher this year, and Izturis only has 119 AB. I gave a shorthand comparison, which isn't exact, but acceptable.

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Aug 1, 2006 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions

Ugh

Where's the remote? Would someone please change the channel.

by jamestkirk on Aug 2, 2006 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions

Butler

regardless of his place on the Knicks depth chart, getting a center that's displayed any ability for 3 years and 7 mill is a good deal (that's Duhon money). I saw that deal and couldn't help but wonder why we didn't backload Ben's contract so we had a few mill to play with this year.
and, I think we can all agree that the reality was that Butler was better than Jerome James. and no, that's not saying something.
The off-shoot is, by letting Butler walk and signing Jeffries to a stupid contract, the Knicks just gave up around five games next season. At this point, any minutes you willing betroth to James are wasted minutes. If they expect any production from him, they are fooling themselves.

by CookDing on Aug 1, 2006 7:24 AM CDT reply actions

5 wins?

I have to know how you came up with that number.

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Aug 1, 2006 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions

5 wins...

...sounds like an approximation by cookDing... so quit instigating!

...and the bulls FRONT loaded ben's contract so they would have the extra few mil to play with when ben's joints start to creak...

... and the cubs have cornered the market in suck. that will not stop the drunk wrigleyville bleacher bums from keeping attendance high, but it sure will hinder the cubs chances of winning another flag.

by leeac on Aug 1, 2006 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions

I am aware

it is an unfounded statement, so yeah, I guess I was instigating an argument, but a largely unproven bench player being worth 5 wins?

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Aug 1, 2006 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions

Sounds like something...

PaxJax would just throw out there, completely unsubstantiated.

(Now that's instigation!)

by bullshooter on Aug 1, 2006 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions

It's an

approximation and if you don't like it, i don't care. if I had some convoluted statistical measurement that led to the statement I would have referenced and/or included it.
it wasn't so much a comment on the value of Butler as it was the detriment of James. James clearly doesn't care about he's contributions when he's not up for a contract. coupling that with the likely bump in playing time that he's to receive, I estimated an amount of losses that will result.
and, paxjax, you're confusing the hell out of me. ...do you care about stats or don't you?

by CookDing on Aug 1, 2006 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions

Another Butler note

Since per was mentioned, I thought I would look up Jackie Butler's PER and it turned out to be 14.79, which is just about average, but more than the more expensive Jamaal Magloire. Also, as was shown by his increasing minutes, he was ahead of Jerome James in Larry Brown's rotation and in fact, some games he was playing in crunch time instead of Eddy Curry. When you factor in that he is 21 years old, has some pretty good low post skills, and plays taller than his listed 6'10", he would have been worth a look.

by bigballa10 on Aug 1, 2006 5:16 PM CDT reply actions

Oh man...

one more of these posts and I will be convinced Bulls fans want Aaron Miles and Jackie Butler as the starting point guard and center.

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Aug 1, 2006 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions

point

the point is simply this: at 3 years and 7 mill, a young big that has displayed some competence is a good value. nobody here is claiming Butler as a world beater, just a signing that could have been good for the Bulls.

by CookDing on Aug 2, 2006 7:14 AM CDT up reply actions

how

we didnt have cap room? and we dont have exemptions

by milesgmsu on Aug 2, 2006 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions

what is everybody posting to?

the initial diary posting for this thread posed the question as Butler instead of Griffin. i presented the scenario of having backloaded Ben's contract instead of frontloading it. what have you guys been responding to?

by CookDing on Aug 2, 2006 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions

what?

You mean this isn't a Cub's thread?

by jamestkirk on Aug 2, 2006 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions

Remember

The Bulls were looking to get veteran players to offset the youth on the team.

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Aug 2, 2006 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions

i do

remember that and can see the value. i'm just a twitchy fan that's uncomfortable with the age and size of our frontcourt. if we don't manage to resign Brown next year (which could be good or bad), we'll have two players over 6'10'' (neither of which are starting material). please, don't lecture me on "actual" height either. i just don't want to go through another season like last year's when you've got so very little in the frontcourt. it's a complex, i'll admit it.

by CookDing on Aug 2, 2006 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions

I would say

being nervous over the future of 4/5 guys Ben Wallace, Old PJ Brown, Tyrus Thomas, The Noce, Malik Allen, and the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man is being a little more than twitchy. Wallace may be on the decline, but barring a serious injury his production shouldn't drop off to nothing. Jackie Butler might have been worth a look, but he will be an average big at best. I am not going to do the clicking required to find out what bigs will be free agents when Ben Wallace's fro is falling out and he can't block any shots, but I am willing to bet my Blog-a-Bull visor and coveralls that there will br a big of equal to greater talent than Jackie Butler available.

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Aug 2, 2006 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions

you can't bet those!

they were a gift!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 2, 2006 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions

my turn

when do i get something matt?

by milesgmsu on Aug 2, 2006 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions

Visor?

I know I've been gone for a while, but when did I miss the visor thread? :)

In Pax we Trust!

by Jobu on Aug 3, 2006 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions

it is

a little more than twitchy, but i'm also banking on brown and sweets being gone after next year. and, for all his worth, i don't see Malik being an great "first big of the bench". i know Ben's good and I'm not concerned about decline and, i'm not talking about signing a big when ben's deal is done. i'm talking about years 2-4 of ben's contract. you know, the one's where we're currently slated to have two 6'7'' power forwards and a 6'9'' center (and again, i beg you, don't bring up "true" height)?

by CookDing on Aug 3, 2006 7:22 AM CDT up reply actions

draft

don't forget there is a lot of big young talent in next years draft

gives us lots of options next summer, draft a young big with Knicks pick then can trade or sign and trade and maybe find a true scoring PF/C to go with whats left as we will have tons of young talent on team

remember, as nice as it is to have lots of guys who can play, you really only need like 8 to give serious mins

my guess is you sign PJBrown to play like 20mins off bench next year and he'd be effective at PF/C for decent price

by NY Chicago Fan on Aug 3, 2006 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions

Seriously

2 years from now and the Bulls could be an entirely different team. It would do everyone good to stop the panic over another big, considering none are available right now anyway. It's a pretty pointless exercise.

True height isn't witchcraft. Don't be afraid of it. Smaller bigs like Ben Wallace and Elton Brand have made careers based on length. Discussing the size of a basketball player without mentioning their length and true height is like (and it's early, so forgive the poor analogy) having a conversation about pizza, only cheese cannot be mentioned.

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Aug 3, 2006 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions

all i said was

spare me that argument. i've heard it, i've digested it and it's pretty empty to me. length is not like cheese, it's like sausage. it's great when combined with essential parts (skill, desire, atheleticism), but not any sort of key-indicator on it's own. i'll agree that head-to-toe height isn't a barometer of greatness, but citing Brand and Ben as examples won't convince me. name any scenario and two or three players can be named as overcoming it.
as far as talking about next year's team, this was all born out of a what-if regarding Butler. what would signing him have meant? i brought up a little more long-term stability for our frontcourt. i didn't say an all-star, i didn't say that next year we won't get something, i didn't say that current players wouldn't be able to fill in potential absences.. ...i said we would have added stability for an incredibly cheap price. and if you think that getting butler (no matter your view of his skill level) for 3 years and 7 million is a bad move, then your an idiot. Brian Skinner makes more than that. BRIAN SKINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by CookDing on Aug 3, 2006 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions